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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Jun 10, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    thanks - going to give it a try myself...
    [​IMG]
    actually I thought I was doing well yesterday until I welded on the bottom 'bracket' on backwards for the recessed box I made...of course, some of my best welds ever, and then I had to waste a lot of time and effort cutting and grinding them out without damaging the pieces too much...ended up trashing the bracket, but think I save the box...should go faster making the bracket a second time....hopefully....

    And just for fun, test fitting the alternator and PS pump....probably going to take some work shimming everything just right to get all the pulley alignment done correctly, but can't do that until I get the pulley set. Also, a bit worried about the old PS pump as the shaft sticks out pretty far - a bit further than the water pump, so clearance with radiator/fan might be a problem...we'll see....
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
    Twin2, duffer, Jw60 and 3 others like this.
  2. Jun 10, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    So this is where I am going with this...maybe the wrong path but we'll see. Had some left-over 18g sheet metal from the floorpan project on the cj5 from years ago. Made a 3 sided box and the bottom portion that will also wrap around and down the lower firewall for the bottom edge and mount:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    they go together to make this...
    [​IMG]

    Idea is something like this:
    [​IMG]

    traced out the firewall along the sides so I can trim the excess off the bottom:
    [​IMG]

    Lastly, it will get a 'trim' of sheet metal 1"x1" 90 angle to wrap from the inside around the front edge (kind of like the bottom edge but smaller....still debating whether to spot weld the trim to the firewall (and thus the entire box, or to screw it to the firewall (probably using some threaded inserts/riv-nuts) so that it is less permanent? Its not going to be perfect, but once it painted, buried behind the distributor, coil, engine, air filter and wiper motor, and then covered in dirt and dust and oil etc....maybe it won't matter too much.
     
  3. Jun 10, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    I seem to recall some stock 3 groove crank pulleys with the specific PS groove offset towards the front. The block mounted Gen II pumps line up with the normal fan belt grooves like your engine in the background. On my 3B project I ended up getting a custom 3 groove water pump pulley made so all 3 belts are "close in" and all wrap the water pump pulley.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  4. Jun 10, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Yes...I am looking at ordering a pulley set with double groove water pump pulley and the double + PS pulley set up on the crank. Didn't want to order this week as leaving town for a bit and don't like stuff sitting on my porch while I am gone. We can always hope it all goes together nicely. Otherwise I might have to look for a type II pump and different bracket ...
     
  5. Jun 10, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Getting closer....
    [​IMG]

    got the sides trim up to match the firewall profile, go the bottom corners of the box welded up, got the dash bracket for the vent lever drilled in place, and got the top angle edge trim in and cut around the wiper motor etc....just have the side edge trim left - it will be a little PITA as the edge profile is not straight. Also added in a brace across the upper and lower panel seem. The PO cut the welded pinch seam to make clearance for the old engine up against the firewall. Just used a bunch of 'spot' welds along the edge and throughout the middle where I drilled holes. I didn't trust trying to do much more with my lack of welding skills and the old, thin, crusty firewall - thought I might just burn through. Turn out it could handle some heat but this was easy enough. Still have to grind them mostly flat.
     
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  6. Jun 19, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Finished the firewall recess....have to decide if I want to try and weld it to the firewall, or use some threaded inserts and mounted it with machine screws...not sure if one way is better than the other or not....I think I can get a tighter fit with the threaded insert/screw method as it will pull the pieces together....If I weld it using a poor mans spot/plug weld technique, I would possibly have to use some sheet metal screws to hold things tight and then weld up the holes? Decisions....
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Jun 19, 2021
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    if you don't plan on ever removing it . spot weld
     
    FinoCJ and ITLKSEZ like this.
  8. Jun 19, 2021
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Post Falls, ID
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    With it potentially being removable to the engine compartment (vs the cab), there’s really no benefit for it to be removable IMO. Weld’er up.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  9. Jun 25, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    A little more progress...seems to take me forever to do small stuff...
    [​IMG]

    the distributor recess box is welded in and also mounted up the electric wiper motor with threaded inserts so its easily removeable (it will have to be removed prior to removing a distributor if needed). Did a lot of cleaning in the engine bay and inner fenders getting rid of years of oil and clay mudcake buildup....Started to find some of the original red coming through (or never painted over as the case with the fenders). There are still lots of unnecessary holes in the firewall and some other problems, its ugly and rough, but I think that is what its going to be. At least everything is solid - hopefully the cracks and panel separation that had begun is under control, and while its not pretty, and certainly not good for minimizing engine bay air into the cab (always drive with window and vent open), its feels rock solid, is maybe a small step better than it was, and hopefully won't be noticeable behind the engine too much. Its going to get some rattle can paint to help and then hopefully getting close to final fit-up and clearance of the engine etc....
     
  10. Jun 25, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
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    Putting on all the accessories for final fit-up and test fit back in the engine bay....I moved the non-EGR intake that was on the 283 (but was not oem) to the 1978 350 along with the non-EGR q-jet I rebuilt a couple years ago. I checked the casting number on the intake and was common on 1969 350s for most all car applications (but not trucks). Interestingly enough, while the 69 intake fit on the 78 block, the 78 intake does not fit on the old 57 283 block as it won't clear the big round cylinder at the rear of the valley (I think its part of the draft tube system).
    [​IMG]

    I was so hoping I wouldn't have to deal with a bunch of pulley/belt drive complications, and after some initial concern...I think its going to work. I have a 2 groove crank pulley along with an additional add-on power steering pulley (not in picture) for a 3rd groove, as well as a 2 groove water pump pulley and the 2 groove pulley on the PS pump that I pulled off the 283.
    [​IMG]

    The main issue is that the inner/rearward groove on the crank pulley is 'under' the water pump (or so far inward/closer to the block) that it is essentially useless. I bought the crank and water pump pulleys as a set, and was hoping that the 2 grooves on the crank would line up with the 2 grooves on the WP. But, as is, the forward/outer crank groove must be used with the inner/rearward wp groove. The inner wp groove is the one that lines up with the alternator, and with the high center mount alternator, you can't run a belt around all three pulleys.
    I think I am going to have to use the 3rd groove add-on crank pulley to work with the outer PS groove....I am not sure how much clearance I am going to have with the front cross-member, so I was hoping not to use the extra crank pulley.
    [​IMG]

    After wracking my brain for how to align the alternator with the forward wp groove, in my end of day delirium, I got to thinking maybe I can run the alt off the rear/inner wp groove, and then run a single belt that combines the outermost (3rd) crank groove with the outermost wp and PS grooves...If that extra crank pulley will clear, that could be the solution...I didn't get a pic, but I added the 3rd crank groove and it really looks like it will work...hopefully this makes sense tomorrow morning...I need another beer now...
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
  11. Jun 26, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Jumping ahead here a bit, but starting to think about the steering...the idea is to keep the current power saginaw box (or at least the mounting) - its mounted a bit low, I think that was to avoid having to cut or notch out the bottom of the front cross-member - and while I don't love it, it's good enough for something that isn't a hard core wheeling vehicle. The current set-up (from an FSJ I think), has the steering shaft routed like this:
    [​IMG]

    You can see the fresh frame boxing I welded in - that is where the motor mount is going to go, and the shaft will interfere with the lower end/corner of the mount. The shaft is going to need to be routed more horizontal and stay under the mount - something like this:
    [​IMG]

    Obviously, going to have to make some changes here...and I am not sure how to do it. For lack of a better way to say it, if the column would extend a few more inches into the engine bay, and then the steering shaft could be shortened a quite a few inches, it could work (and probably a double joint as the angle might get a bit tight?). But I am not really sure about getting a shorter shaft, or shortening the steering shaft if that is even possible. FWIW, that shaft has a rag joint on the box end. Assuming I can figure out how to shorten the steering shaft, that means I am going to need a sort of 'intermediate' shaft that connects to the bottom of the column, and then goes down to the main/lower steering shaft and connects with a joint of some sort (and maybe a support bearing as well)?

    As for the steering column, totally willing to spend the money to replace it with generic GM style tilt column - maybe something like this:
    Standard GM 5-Position Tilt Steering Column, 30 Inch Long, Plain

    So, these come in different lengths, but I think that has more to do with how tall it extends into the cab, but the amount the bottom end extends or sticks out into the engine bay is pretty standard? In other words, getting a longer one doesn't necessarily create more extension into the engine bay, just lengthens the cab/steering wheel end? So would still need the 2 piece steering shaft on the bottom end?

    Its a bit pricey to go the new column route, but it has the internal blinker/hazards and tilt feature - which is nice and provides a bit of flexibility given that the seats may change one day - and will move the key ignition switch back to the dash. The current set-up has the key in the column along with blinker etc, and while it works, its been 'messed' with and is a bit wonky. It also uses the same GM 'harmonica' style harness connector, so should be pretty straight forward wiring even with the keyed ignition switch moving. Figuring out a steering wheel (and probably adapter) will be part of the deal as well. In other words, its going to be a lot of money, but if I can get right, I really think it'll be worth it.

    PS - why is all this stuff chrome or brushed or natural metal - how about decent black paint/powdercoat? I had to get a shiny alternator bracket cuz that is all you can buy - lucky I found pulleys and PS pump mount in black.
     
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  12. Jun 26, 2021
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    There's no bottom mount that I see on that column, I think you could mount it at any height that you want.
    I have just the opposite problem with my Willys build, I need the column as short as possible, right up against the firewall.
     
  13. Jun 26, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    yea - that worries me because I have no idea how to mount it to the floor pan either....
     
  14. Jun 26, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Damn....just figured out the pulley alignment issue...as this is just some test fitting for accessory clearance etc, I don't have any of the timing gears or cover on. Normally the dampener would 'bottom out' against the timing gear, but without the timing gear it went all the way until it bottoms out where the timing gear would stop...The timing gear is a bit over 1/2 thick....that would push the face of the dampener out to 3" and I think the bottom pulley grooves will line up with the upper pulley....I might not even need to use the 3rd groove crank pulley, and both belts can go around the crank, wp pulley and their individual accessory...
     
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  15. Jun 26, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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  16. Jun 26, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    yea - I don't do well with too many options...I've been looking at those a lot recently, and what I am determining is most of those are for the upper mount at the dash (I think), and there are very few for the bottom support at the floor?
     
  17. Jun 26, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    I read on internet lore from summit racing that the front face of the dampener should be about 3" from the front machined face of the block - and mine was just under 2.5" so I needed to look into it more (besides the rear groove on the crank was essentially useless as it was and that didn't seem right). Here is the new alignment with the timing gear on the crank behind the dampener - both grooves in the upper and lower pulley match up and now I won't have to use the 3rd groove add-on. One belt for the alternator and one for the pump, and both will go around the crank and wp pulleys as well...much better.
    [​IMG]

    and yes - when it correct, its about 3' from block to front face of the dampener:
    [​IMG]

    nothing like turning a 30 min job into a 24hr hassle....now back to fit-up....
     
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  18. Jun 26, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    A bracket is just a bracket If it works use it.

    That said, all these are intended to work on the floor:
    The second two are somewhat better in that they over the hole in the floor and don't need an additional grommet.
     
  19. Jun 26, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    So hard for me to tell what will and won't work from online retailers...its also been a long and frustrating day, so I am a bit grumpy.
    Those are the 3 I found as well that might work, and I kind of like the simplicity of the first two, but I don't really see how they work...I get that they bolt to to the floorpan around the hole the column goes through, but do they clamp tight enough around the column to hold it in place? As Doug said, none of these generic aftermarket columns have any kind of step or lip for the clamp to work with/go under, so just want to make sure the column won't just slide through it by accident - my feet have enough to do down there working 3 pedals and the headlight dimmer switch, they cant steer the wheel as well.
     
  20. Jun 27, 2021
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    I made this plate to mount the postal Jeep column in CJ. Planning on a similar setup for the Willys pickup build. It's just a flat piece of steel cut to the appropriate size and a piece of exhaust tubing welded to it and a couple of clamps. Cheap and effective!
    20210627_082211.jpg
     
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