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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. May 31, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Maybe there is hope this will all go back in the wagon one day....never dropped an engine in with transmission and transfer case all as one...in some ways, makes it real easy other than there is nothing to mount anything to - but of course having the radiator and front grill off is a big piece of that...
    [​IMG]

    Getting sorta in the right spot...I feel like it sits low, but I also know with the carb and air cleaner, there isn't a lot of room under the hood....but still, it will probably come up a couple inches as well as need a slight inclination to the front end.
    [​IMG]

    the sm465/D18 is touching the underside floorboard, so even though the shift tower lines up nicely, probably going to need some upward clearance for everything to come up a couple inches... I think...maybe...need to fiddle around with a cross-member under there as well....
    [​IMG]
     
  2. May 31, 2021
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    Borgeson makes those
    Steel 3/4-36 X 3/4DD
     
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  3. Jun 1, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
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    I think I am getting close to getting the engine positioned correctly - in short I think the front end will have to come up a bit to get to the proper 3 degrees or so, and the whole thing will probably need to shift towards the driver side an inch or so....that will help with the two big clearance issues I am seeing: the front driveshaft to starter and the D18 to the floorpan tunnel. I have already cut the transmission hole bigger, but will need to cut a bit more on the driver side to allow things to shift in that direction....and of course, none of this has been tested with drivetrain weight on the suspension, which will be done after shifting things drivers side a bit. Hopefully its getting close.

    General position:
    [​IMG]

    Engine inclination - only about 1.5 degrees, so that needs to be increased a bit, and when the suspension sags under weight, it may need even a bit more:
    [​IMG]

    Liking the clearance on the back firewall - a large HEI won't fit, but a small HEI or pertronix unit might without too much firewall mod....obviously, the old hole is going to need some attention.
    [​IMG]

    Clearance in the front looks fine with the axle so far, and I think the long nose water pump would actually fit based on measurements (a bit tight) - planning to keep the electric fan set-up to maximize clearance there, but will can switch out to a short nose pump if needed.
    [​IMG]

    Here is my biggest concern so far - the front driveshaft to starter clearance. Moving the engine toward the driver side will help a bit, and maybe getting it a bit higher will help. Getting it driver won't be too difficult, but getting it higher is not as easy.
    [​IMG]

    Driverside clearance is fine as long as the steering shaft is routed low (below the motor mount) and horizontal...should be able to push the engine towards this side a bit:
    [​IMG]

    In terms of floorpan tunnel clearance... Going to have to cut a bit more to push things toward driver. Its also going to get tight with the gas pedal, but maybe that can be moved a bit if needed.
    [​IMG]

    From the underside, the D18 is hitting the hat channel on the side of the tunnel, so it cannot go any higher. If it moves driver a bit, that will help give it a bit more clearance, and maybe give an inch or so of upward movement.
    [​IMG]

    Finally, the cross-member....looks like everything is just high enough to clear the old cross-member, which is flat mounted under the frame. Its already a bit low and exposed being below the frame, so don't really want anything hanging any lower. Based on the D18 torque mount, if everything gets shifted just under and inch driver - the old torque mount would work with a flat cross-member, and the drivetrain will be lateraly just as it was original....but it is going to need an isolator mount under the trans. Its hard to see in the pic, but its sitting on top of the cross-member just left of the adapter plate. I got the Novak one that mounts into the bottom of the adapter plate, but obviously, its not going to fit on top of a flat cross-member - so some sort of modification or notch to the cross-member to create a bit of space is going to be needed. Or everything has to be raised 1.75" and I think that starts to create major interference with the floorpan tunnel...
    [​IMG]

    After getting everything pushed left - will have to see about getting the motor mounts clamped in place to test out putting the drivetrain weight on the frame, and putting on the add-ons like carb/air cleaner, starter etc and inspect clearances.
     
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  4. Jun 1, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    Nibbling away at the elephant. Might not feel like much but it is time worth taken.

    .02 once the driveline is moved over, put the speedometer cable in and make sure that it is not to tight against the frame.
    Look at a "mini starter" "high torque" or gear reduction starter as they move the motor up and away from the driveshaft but can interfere with the exhaust.
     
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  5. Jun 2, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Truckee CA
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    Nice use of the BCA slope meter - I will have to remember to dig mine out and do that on my build.
     
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  6. Jun 2, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    it was either that or my old geologists brunton compass with dip angle finder....
     
  7. Jun 2, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    inch by inch, life's a cinch....that is an annoying saying a friend of mine has....here is the next inch....
    Did some work to get things shifted towards the driver....had to cut the tunnel a bit more, and then a bit more yet...It is a bit of hassle at this point to drop the transmission way down to give a lot clearance for cutting so just did a few small notches with the dremmel and will eventually go back and clean that all up with a bit more clearance. The sm465 really comes up through the floor now:
    [​IMG]

    That allowed me to get the engine mostly level and moved over...the engine is about 1.25" closer to the driver side frame rail than the passenger - easy to see the difference in the length of the mounts
    driver mount:
    [​IMG]

    passenger mount:
    [​IMG]

    I c-clamped the mounts to the frame - supposedly that is enough hold engine weight for test fitting. The one thing that is very hard to tell is if the engine is sitting square in the frame, and the crank and drivetrain are (in theory) directly parallel to the frame rails and perpendicular to the cross-member....given the age and abuse seen by this old wagon, the frame probably isn't all the square anyway, and the frame widens out right behind the engine...tough to tell, but I think it will help once its sitting solely on the mounts and they are tightened up a bit.

    Got the D18 torque mount lightly in place as that seems to set up well with the cross-member, but had to shim the transmission up 1/4" to level things out (might be a bit more after the weight is transferred to the engine mounts from the chain)....still have to figure out the isolator mount.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Jun 2, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
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    Its sitting under it own weight on the mounts...the engine isn't at full weight as there are no pistons, rods or crank - so its a bit light, but the heads have the complete valve train. Put some of the accessories on like the carb, air cleaner, distributor, alternator, and electric wiper motor...
    [​IMG]

    This is not the air cleaner that was on the 283, and it has a more recessed bottom, so even with a 3" tall filter, it sits lower (covering more of the carb) and has no issue with the hood, and even better gives a bit room for the electric wiper motor. Its a 14" air cleaner, so maybe I can drop down to a 13" to provide a safe amount of clearance for the wiper motor. As for the distributor, an OEM large cap HEI will not install as is, but an older points style distributor (with pertronix) will fit nicely, but think it will still require a small depression in the upper portion of the firewall for it to be installed/removed with engine in place. Still planning on looking for a shorter small HEI set-up. In all cases, the electric wiper motor will have to be removed, but I am planning to get that set-up with 4 easy machine screws into riv-nuts and it has nice quick disconnect blade plug for the wires.
    [​IMG]

    At first I was excited about how nicely the alternator bracket worked, but it is for a long water pump, and while I think the pump will clear the radiator, I do not think the associated lower crank pulley will clear the front cross-member (I assume the lower crank pulley has to stick out further to match the longer water pump) ..so probably going to have to go with a short water pump and shorter crank pulley, and figure out a different alternator bracket (and PS pump).
    [​IMG]

    Also checking the front driveshaft clearance with starter mount...there is about 2.25" of vertical clearance. There is also an extra long bumpstop for the right leaf spring that is shifted back towards the the spring pivot that is there to help protect the starter.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So I think this is pretty darn close to the final position. There are trade-offs for every potential shift or change...as I will probably have to go to a short water pump, the engine could possibly be pushed a bit further forward to allow for easier distributor removal with a flat firewall, but it might change clearance with driveshaft/starter, and its hard to move the support cross-member much further forward as it will interfere with the frame mounted pedals. Raising the engine a inch or two more is also a possibility - it would help with driveshaft clearance, but hurt distributor access, and floorpan cutting would have to get a lot bigger to clear the D18, not just the sm465.
    Compared to where the old 283 was mounted, the current position is about 2.5 further forward, and maybe 1 inch higher at the back, and will be even more at the front as the old 283 had no inclination to its mount. I think I will drop the pan and add in the crank, add the front grill/radiator and then test fit with short and long water pumps.
     
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  9. Jun 3, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    It is the starter bump in the bellhousing that contacts so a mini starter does nothing to help that situation. There may be sufficient clearance as is and I would probably just put some miles on it. That said, I'm totally sold on the mini starters. If you go that route, make sure you purchase one that can be indexed. Those can place the starter body right next to the block with more clearance for everything.

    This is the McLeod starter on my 3B engine.
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Jun 3, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
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    correct - just like on the cj v6...I don't even have a old starter for testing fitting, but as long as it clears the bellhousing mount, the rest should be fine. With over 2" of clearance back near the the D18 output, it would take a lot of upward flex/movement at the axle end to cause issues. I would consider a mini starter for exhaust clearance more than anything at this point....especially since I think I'll be running the block hugger headers.

    Did a bit of test fitting, and the long water pump is a no go with the current engine placement - there is not enough room up front. Going to put on a short water pump, which will save a couple inches, and I think that it will just fit...don't think there is any more room to push stuff forward which was the one main thing I was thinking I might try to get a bit more distributor clearance. The firewall has already been hacked up, so when I repair it (hack it back together), I'll probably leave it with a small notch.

    Doing some research on short water pump bracket mounts for alternator and steering pump....I could try and scavenge a JY for stuff...but I think short water pump stuff is quite a bit less common than long water pump pieces. Thinking these might do the trick:

    Small Block Chevy Upper Alternator Bracket, Plain
    this alternator bracket would keep it from getting too far outboard on the passenger side, as I also have to figure out where to mount the battery tray...the previous swap had the battery tray on the inside front passenger fender, and if kept there, it would interfere with too far of an 'outboard' alternator mount....The one linked would probably require a different water outlet angle but that is manageable.

    JEGS 60795: Power Steering Pump Brackets Side Mount | JEGS
    this PS pump mount looks good and is sort of the standard driver side mid mount - couldn't use this with the 283 as it had the front cradle mount that would have interfered. It has 2 positions, and I'd probably use the higher position for ease of access....here are a couple pics of the mount from another, more expensive supplier:
    upload_2021-6-3_12-56-52.png

    As I've been doing internet searching etc....also looking at clutch and flywheel pieces. With the large bore bellhousing for the sm465, I would assume this was originally set-up with a 168 tooth (14") flywheel, and thus could use the 11" clutch. Any reason to use a smaller 153 tooth (13") flywheel and clutch (10.4") common to SBCs? In theory, I could use the 168 tooth flywheel from the sbc283, but it has another one of those odd early sbc features with a large flywheel, but drilled for smaller 10.4" clutch and pressure plate. My plan is buy a new flywheel - probably from JEGS (JEGS 601205: Flywheel for 1955-1985 Small Block Chevy & 1966-1972 Big Block Chevy, 168-Tooth [Internally Balanced] | JEGS) - and maybe if I can ever sell the sbc283, it would still have some of the unique features of its early vintage and be beneficial to the right buyer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  11. Jun 3, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    I used that Speedway bracket for a number of years. I seem to remember making some spacers to get the belt alignment right but you could just use washers. A photo of that bracket on the 381:
    [​IMG]

    The last one I fabricated looks more like the Jeg's version only with much more beef.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    No reason to use the 153 tooth flywheel. The 168 tooth and an 11" clutch is the way to go. I've heard that the diaphragm versions were less pedal pressure but frankly, I couldn't tell any difference between those and the B&B style.
     
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  12. Jun 3, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    The flywheel would be dependent on starter mounting holes. I don't remember which was which but the staggered bolts worked with one flywheel and the inline bolts worked for another. Most mini starters use the inline pattern but have offset holes for use with either flywheel.

    I beleave most 350s had three starter mounting holes for car or truck big or small but do check before you order.

    In theory the larger surface area and mass will absorb more slippage and heat before burning. I'm using a typical sm465 truck clutch for the 85 4.3 to t90. The release fork arm is shortened about 2" and uses the f134 linkage rods. It worked out nicely for me and has a good over center feel at full travel to not tire my leg at stoplights. I'm not sure how the chain linkage felt but I remember our 85 k30 with hydraulic clutch on a 350 and sm465 as being very firm which could also be the pressure plate.
    Lastly about clutches and pulleys. Have them balanced if you balance the internals. I had one that was offbalance on the 3.3 and it was found when I tried reusing it on the 4.3
     
  13. Jun 4, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    ??

    Most, if not all, aluminum bellhousing/block mounted starter blocks are 2 bolt. I've never seen anything else except for my Dart block which has starter mounting holes on both sides. I'm using an early XJ slave cylinder with a flat mounting plate bolted to two of the bellhousing bolts and a shortened GM cast steel throwout arm in my B. That has worked well for at least 2 decades.
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Jun 4, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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  15. Jun 6, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Spent a lot of time accomplishing very little this weekend....
    Did test clearance with short water pump - looks to be the route I will go, but going to need some multi-groove pulleys for short pump and crank. Could possibly run a mechanical fan with this engine placement and small spacer, although clearance with the front cross-member might be a problem. For now, sticking with the electric fan.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Pulled the drivetrain out to work on some stuff, before doing a final test fit later. The motor mounts will need to be welded to frame...as they are positioned over a 'window' section of the frame, I will have to box in that window on both sides. Novak suggests best welding mount is to plug weld them to the inside of the frame rail boxing, and then run a short section of bead along the top, but not to run long weld beads vertically along the sides....what do you all think?
    [​IMG]

    I decided to 'clean up' the section of the ugly firewall that had been notched back into the cab to clear the distributor by just cutting out it all the junky rough and cracked stuff to find some good metal and smooth edge - this is going to be tough for me as the firewall is not just a flat panel, and I will probably need to create my own notch to provide some distributor install/removal clearance. Also will need to create a horizontal overlay for the seam between the upper and lower panels, as the welded and stiffening lip has been removed.
    [​IMG]

    Then I got distracted with some suspension stuff...the front springs didn't compress at all when the weight of the drivetrain was placed on the frame...which then got me jumping on the frame etc and wondering why there was no spring movement. I started with removing and cleaning up all the shackle and hanger pivots, and not over tightening them...looks to have original style shackles on the front
    [​IMG]

    and original greasable bolts on the pivots:
    [​IMG]

    and while that stuff was a bit stiff, and now is definitely not binding, I just don't think there is going to be much flex in those 10 leaf spring packs and only 35" long.

    But I ran into some hassle getting things to fit back together. The issue turned out to be the shocks are too short...when the jeep is just sitting under it own weight, the distance between the shock mounts is slightly greater than the shock at maximum extension.
    [​IMG]

    To get the shock on, you have to compress the springs a bit, and of course, the shackle angle isn't ideal either - the springs are also a bit short (maybe arched for a bit of lift at a spring shop at some point).This is the second jeep that has been this way from the PO - the cj was the same way. So for now I am leaving them disconnected and will add new shocks to the list later. So when just sitting, the jeep is a smidge higher, and now has just a bit more give, but it goes down to the same spot under engine weight. I've never even driven this thing off pavement, but for a solid axle to work well, one side needs to compress while the other droops, and there was no chance of droop with the old shocks...
     
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  16. Jun 7, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    the new motor mounts will overlap quite a lot with this opening on the inside of the frame rails:
    [​IMG]

    so I welded in a patch piece on each side...Getting better at doing this - hopefully the motor mounts don't pull out at 60mph...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Now to work on the firewall...
     
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  17. Jun 7, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Are any local stores having sales on metal Wheelbarrows?
     
  18. Jun 7, 2021
    Muzikp

    Muzikp Active Member

    Sacramento Ca.
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    I was thinking the exact same thing. But it looks like Fino doesn't need that big of a hump in his firewall. I think the guys on Dirt Everyday used a wheelbarrow firewall on a Jeepster. I can't recall which episode it was, but it sure worked great.
     
  19. Jun 7, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Its more like a large coffee can - well now that I cut it out bigger, maybe a gallon paint bucket roughly. I think i would want to roughly match the the thickness of the firewall as well - and the already weakened firewall will be supporting it - so seems like its got to be sheetmetal of some gauge.
     
  20. Jun 8, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    If you sent me a fold up template I’d lay it flat, trace it and bend it up for you out of 18ga.
     
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