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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. May 22, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    I wouldn't loose much sleep worrying about that. The 19 spline full floater in my 3B survived just fine behind both the 350 and 381 for 46 years and looks like it gets its chance to weather the 441 until next winter. I'm also very conservative off road but can not deny getting on it a bit on the highway.
     
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  2. May 22, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Rear bearing shim pack is always a fun part of rebuilding a D18 - think I about got it.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  3. May 23, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Some Sunday morning thoughts as I am nearing some of the bigger steps....

    1) engine will hopefully go to the machine shop soon...pretty much thinking basic build, nothing fancy etc. A basic sbc350 build should have more power than is needed...IIRC from a quick inspection last fall, it will need to be bored 30 over...Going to keep the flat tappet cam etc...any recommendations on cam or on the build? Again, basically going more for the lower 500-3500 rpm range, with some decent low end torque and not much concern about high rpm anything. Initial plan is to keep the iron heads with new valve job etc...I have both ramshorn exhaust manifolds and shorty headers that could be used - I think I'd prefer the manifolds from a sort of aesthetic 'old iron' perspective as keeping the iron heads as well, but it may mostly depend on if one fits better and has better clearance with brake MC and steering shaft etc. I know a number of you love aftermarket aluminum heads, and those could combine with the shorty headers for some additional hp, and probably wouldn't cost me any additional money in total - don't think the hp is needed. Haven't decided about the carb/intake either - I have the q-jet I rebuilt a couple years ago and either two oem manifolds. I need to see if there is any important differences in the manifolds (port size) other than the later one is EGR equiped. There is also the option of an aftermarket edelbrock performer style manifold and carb set...decisions...decisions...

    2) I keep going back and forth as to whether its worth it to add an OD on the D18...I think I know most all the plusses of the OD, and greatly appreciate the one on the cj5, but basically its another $800-1000 and I feel like I am already way over the budget on this project (maybe at some point the budget doesn't matter anymore?). I could go through all the details, but basically, with 4.27 gears is not as needed as say 4.88s, but keeping the tire size relatively short (30") does mean the rpms will be slightly high for cruising (65mph = 3000rpm - so not undoable by any means) - albeit maybe one day I can get the tires a bit taller. Driving here in the mountains its nice to have some additional gear choices for highway passes, but the sbc should provide plenty of power to hold it in 3rd (1:1)...nothing new here per se, just coffee ramblings. If budget were not a concern, then OD for sure....guess it can always be done later....just more of a hassle than doing it on the bench now. Leaning towards saving the money as covering additional cost of things like driveshafts, flywheel, accessory bracketry and so on will probably add up to a lot more than I am expecting. And if I don't need it for that, it can still be used for something like new seats, leaf springs etc...

    3) Finally, building the drivetrain on the bench/stand is pretty straightforward...its the 'custom' install into the willys that is concerning. Not sure what is the best way to test fit the engine etc...From a practical standpoint, I don't know if my HF picker is up for hanging an unbalanced sbc with sm465/D18 hanging off of it...going to need some sort of rolling support for the transmission end to help. I don't have much room for moving big pieces like this around and sliding into and out of position - I've only got about 4 ft in front of the willys to work with. I may end up having to test fit the engine all by itself, and then somehow do a temporary underside install of the 465/18 combo to test fit clearance with the floorpan etc...and figuring out a cross-member - I try to ignore cross-member thoughts as much as possible, otherwise they keep me up at night.

    Time for another cup of coffee...rained 3/10" last night and the fence project is a bit of a mud-pit - it will dry out quickly in a couple hours.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
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  4. May 23, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    My $0.02 on induction is to use what you have and keep it compatible with a simple tbi system.
    Keep an eye on flywheel weight. I beleave the 4.3 uses a 454 weight flywheel so you might be able to find something a little heavier than the typical 350 if desired.

    The discrepancy I see is building a 500-3500 rpm motor for a 3000rpm cruise. It won't be as efficient as it could be.
    Take a look at the 350ci boat engines and how they are improved to handle the prolonged higher rpms.

    I think 3.73s, bigger tires, higher quality motor (balance and bolts) or keeping to 55mph will be key.

    My 4.3 isn't crazy in cam or intake but I trust is to hold highway speed with 5.38s with or without Overdrive because it is well balanced, has lightened internals and heavier flywheel, quality hardware, good lubrication and good cooling.
     
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  5. May 23, 2021
    bigjohn

    bigjohn Active Member

    Kelso Wa
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    I tend to think of gearing in different terms. If you have a granny 4 speed and a two speed transfer case then you don’t need to sacrifice too much final gearing for the road. With 30” tires, I could make a case for 3:73 or even maybe 3:54 gears. Unless rock crawling is in the Willys future you should have a sufficient crawl ratio for your application while maintaining road manners.
     
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  6. May 23, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I agree that 3.73 gears would be ideal, but I can't see justifying the work and expense to regear the front and rear. An 75% OD may give too much FDR reduction and is more like 3.31 gearing. And if course, any future increase in the tire size will effectively reduce it even more. More reason to skip the OD and just run what it has...If I like it enough to keep it long term then maybe a regear and LS in the rear down the road.

    And since that could be awhile (if ever), I'll look into cam and build options that might be a smidge higher rpm range.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
    bigjohn likes this.
  7. May 23, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    In my experience, an OD is absolutely worth it behind a sbc. More so than even behind the 225. That 350 will just be loafing along at 70 mph. The 381 in my 3B (4.10 gears) was turning 2200-2300 at 75 and absolutely didn't give a damn if you were headed up a 10% grade. The OD was no doubt a big part of why it would get 18 mpg-the other part being EFI. And you do not need a heavy flywheel. 25 to 30 lb works great (about typical stock). The OD is something that doesn't need immediately addressed as it obviously can be added at any point down the road. I think you will like the 4.27's in this rig.
     
  8. May 24, 2021
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    I hung a 302 Ford and NP435 on my engine hoist to test fit it in my Willys PU. We tried one of those engine tilters but it hit the firewall...wound up using a carb lift plate , hooking the hoist in the rear hole, and a floor jack under the trans.
     
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  9. May 25, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Think the D18 is done...tested all the shift positions including 2 low. A couple little exterior things left until test fitting to the sm465 is finished...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. May 25, 2021
    scott milliner

    scott milliner Master Fabricator

    Seattle Wa.
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    Dec 17, 2002
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    Looks like you still need some grinding. I took half off the transmission and half off the shift fork housing.
     
  11. May 25, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Yes - it will need a bit of grinding...but it doesn't look like it going to need much....
    Here it is with no grinding on the first test fit...you can see the D18 will not quite clock right - needs to rotate CCW just a bit:
    [​IMG]

    I did a bit of grinding on both the shift housing and a tiny bit on the case - and its really close....can't finish it up right now but hopefully tomorrow it will get finalized:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And I think ITLKSEZ mentioned somewhere awhile ago that a large hole D18/D20 is worth the price of admission just so you can fit it over the input gear - having never worked with a small hole case it was something I noted:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Maybe one day keeping this D18 will be worth it - mostly for an OD - although I could see why someone would run a D20/sm465 combo and change the axle gearing to get a good combo of both off road gearing and highway gearing and maybe a bit more friendly highway transfer case...lots of different ways to do it.
     
  12. May 27, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Getting to the crux of the grinding and clearance....Looks like I need to remove to bottom of the threaded hole that sticks down below the casted rim of the case, as well as figure out how to accommodate the set screw that holds the shift lever pivot pin in place - can I remove some of that rib in the case right in front of it, or is there a better way to hold the pivot pin?
    [​IMG]
     
  13. May 27, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    When I did mine for the T18, I ground enough off the transmission I could leave the threads for set screw, but replaced the screw itself with a allen set-screw for more clearance:
    [​IMG]

    You might need to grind the rib on the transmission to get access with an allen wrench.
     
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  14. May 28, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Got it to fit.,.its extremely tight so I think I am going to grind a bit more clearance to make it a bit easier to deal with once I have gaskets and everything. And will have to figure out the pivot pin set screw - may very well try a recessed allen head like Roy.
    [​IMG]

    It will be fine for now while I use it for test fitting with engine and all in the willys....so on that note, I started a quick, non-permanent assembly of the engine block (missing most internals) just to have something for test fitting...
    [​IMG]

    I am not really sure if this is the best plan...but figured it would be better to fit the drivetrain before getting the block machined and rebuilt etc...maybe it doesn't really matter. Along those lines, it got me thinking about what components I will need on the engine....I will try test fitting with the large cap HEI - although I am leaning towards using the new pertronix distributor I have - if its test fit with the HEI, then it can always be upgraded later without fitment issues. This engine came with EGR intake and q-jet (I think its from 1978 but I'd have to check the numbers again). I don't think I want to deal with the EGR q-jet, but the intake could probably be used if I just block off the EGR stuff (and it has the 'shield' preheater thingy on the underside). I wanted to just run the basic early q-jet I rebuilt over a year ago with the early spreadbore intake that was running on the 283 - but then I got to thinking that the jet and rod size might not be appropriate for the carb - will have to check. So trying to feel out what to do with the intake and carb....HEI and TBI is probably ideal, but maybe outside of the budget and skill level for now.

    Were there any changes in intake port sizes for the (q-jet) spread bore set-up? Actually same question for the exhaust manifolds - were there any changes in port size for the exhausts? I don't want to use the old ramshorn manifolds if the size is too small - will have to compare to the block hugger headers that came on the 350.
     
  15. May 28, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    You can use a gasket to compare the ports.
    Now is a good time to weld o2 bungs (or appropriately sized nuts) on the exhaust in an upward position (also free from any moisture in the tube) as close to the collector or manifold as possible.

    Yes just block off the egr with a heavy plate that matches it's gasket. I had a block off on the 3.3 v6 but the current 4.3 just has the vacuum hose pulled from the egr valve.

    Be careful with the carb base gasket. Mixing and matching qjets intakes and gaskets can expose ports causing a vacuum leak.

    Or just hold off on that induction decision until August and have the financial manager turn the key on mine when it's -10 degrees out and it fires right up...
    Well maybe not that cold but still, it'll be right there to show her how it works. You can ask me any questions but I really don't know anything about how it works. I just followed the instructions.
     
  16. May 29, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    you think there is an exhaust system on this thing yet? ha - it most likely will not get an exhaust system beyond the manifold/headers until it can be driven to the exhaust shop....
    guess I was more thinking that I would use the q-jet and intake off the running 283 - albeit neither are original to a 283 so don't really know what their application is from...

    I need to dig into a database of intake information somewhere - then I can compare the two intakes...in short, will the non-EGR intake that is currently on the 283 (but possibly from a later 283 or 327 or ?) work on the 350, or if with the increased displacement some changes were made to the intakes and I should stick to a 350 specific intake. maybe this will help:
    Small Block Head Casting Numbers
    NastyZ28.com Chevrolet Decoding Guide

    EDIT - looks like both intakes were for 350 cid and are interchangeable....For now, the plan will be to use the Non-EGR intake with the associated rebuilt q-jet.
    Non-EGR 3927184: 1969 350 4bbl q-jet
    EGR 346249: 1975-77 4bbl q-jet (which corresponds to the 1978 truck engine)

    Exhaust manifolds: these look like they could be original to the 283, and from my caliper measurements, would be essentially the same size port as the 350 heatds...The 283 heads definitely have a smaller port, but the exhaust manifold is properly oversized - it wouldn't be properly oversized for the 350, but it would be equal and should work.
    3749965 LH
    3747042 RH: 1958-1968 283/327
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  17. May 29, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Doing some test fitting:
    [​IMG]

    Here are the Novak motor mounts - Lots of different adjustment options - maybe too many, but guessing I'll appreciate that at some point after I weld them in and find I got them not in the ideal position. Nice to have lots of clearance with the fuel pump as compared to the front cradle mount, and I like how the block hugger header tucks out of the way towards the centerline, especially considering the front driveshaft will be under there.
    [​IMG]

    Overall, this position probably needs to be pushed back towards the firewall a couple more inches - just don't see how a large cap HEI realistically fits here - and also probably needs to be lowered 2-4". On this side, I was trying to get a feel for how the ramshorn manifolds would fit as well.
    [​IMG]

    The biggest issue so far is on the driver side - there is interference with the steering shaft. I also think the ramshorn manifold will put the header pipe in conflict the with the steering shaft as well, and the block hugger would move it inside the shaft. I can create a bit of clearance by grinding some of the lower mount off, but don't think there is any way to avoid re-doing the steering shaft...Its needs to be a bit lower. Really, it just needs to run horizontal from the box back past the mount, and then lengthen the steering column to meet the shaft a bit lower - not sure how big of an angle can be accommodated, but guess some sort of double joint would do the trick?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I don't really know if this is progress - just feels like work....
     
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  18. May 30, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I think I needed to see this even if it doesn't mean much in terms of moving forward with the project....kind helps motivation
    [​IMG]

    Nice to see everything fits together...of course, the hard part will be fitting it under the willys and all the details like engine placement, motor moutns, cross-member, steering, clutch etc....I've been playing around with some modification to the stock cross-member to see if I can re-use that in some way - its really hard to tell alignment and spacing and probably won't be able to do much until its under the wagon. Guess I will go pull off a front fender to make it easier to try and slide this whole shebang in from the front - probably gonna have to start thinking about cutting some sheemetal out....

    Anyone got a suggestion for how to get the front facing bolt into the D18? The extra width of the sm465 compared to a T90/T14 really covers this bolt up. Maybe if I could get it to turn in by finger a couple turns, then I could get a 12pt closed end wrench on it (maybe even buy on of those hinged closed end ratchet wrenches)....but got to get it in fer'nuff to get the wrench behind it.
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. May 30, 2021
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Tulsa, OK
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    Nothing is ever easy! Or as we say at work "nothing ever goes right". I would cut off a cheap open end wrench to get the bolt down as far as possible, then yes a flexible gear wrench if needed. It would probably need to be the gear wrench brand because the knock-offs are too thick.
     
  20. May 30, 2021
    supertrooper

    supertrooper Member

    moreno valley, ca
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    If i remember correctly i used a crows foot and long ratchet extension but i could be wrong.
     
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