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Fino's Sbc Build

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. Oct 31, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Yup...trying to avoid that $1600 scenario...actually, if the engine is ready to roll at $1600, I'd say you did pretty well compared to what I paid for the 225 v6 work - of course I ended up trashing most everything so had to buy some new parts like a crank etc (and they wouldn't even take my crank as a core as it was so damaged!)....

    My appt today included exchanging some avy protection equipment, so that may have just freed up another $270 to spend....

    Quick machine shop estimate from my reading of the pricing sheet (and I rounded everything up just a bit):
    Tank - 100
    Hone 8cyl - 160 (the price list only show 'bore and hone' so maybe honing only would be a bit cheaper?
    Cam bearing install - 65
    plus parts - 20

    So that would be $350....

    If the additional block work is needed - it gets expensive quickly - which is what happened with the 225 v6:
    Crank grind/polish - 150
    Deck - 165
    Line hone - 250

    I think I could live with the $350 amount, and then add new rings, new rod and main bearings, new cam and lifters, new timing kit. It would be over budget on the whole thing, but not by much, and the bottom end would be in really good shape. The avy gear swap could pay for most of this as well.... So, would it be crazy to do this, and use the existing heads as is? Could I run the heads as is, and then replace them in a year or so assuming the finances improve?

    And then I went and found this....
    https://thecylinderheadshop.com/pro...vy-882-76cc-cylinder-heads-sbc-1986-and-older
    Obviously nothing like new aluminum heads, but considering the pair is half the cost of new aluminum ones, and half the cost of machining my existing 882 heads....put all that together, I'd be about $500 over budget, and could deduct the $270 from the avy gear and maybe this could work....
     
  2. Oct 31, 2020
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    I think if you can hone it, put in new rings, bearings, cam, and timing chain it should be good for awhile. You've already lapped the valves and installed seals.
     
  3. Oct 31, 2020
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
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    You can get away with cylinder taper but out of round is something you can't skate by with. Rule of thumb... no more than .010 taper and no more than .003 out of round. If past either that justifies boring and honing the cylinder.

    You can check the cylinder taper with a compression ring and feeler gauge.
     
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  4. Oct 31, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Thanks...I was just searching for those max allowances....
     
  5. Nov 1, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I pulled the #3 piston and rod....the good news is it came out easily by hand and did not get stuck on a ridge at the top of the cylinder. The bad news might be that it came out too easily, indicating significant cylinder bore wear? The skirt looks ok, the wrist pin moves easily, the rings are not obviously broken or damaged, and the rod bearing is nice and smooth although there is some discoloration or wear down into a bronze colored layer on the rod shell...The wear patter on the side of the piston also caught my attention...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
  6. Nov 1, 2020
    Jw60

    Jw60 Cool school 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    Check the bore if everything specs out ok. it could be it overheated and softened the spring of the rings.
    I'ld guess it rightly should be bored 20 over and full rebuild.
     
  7. Nov 1, 2020
    dozerjim

    dozerjim Member

    western New York
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    well I am going to take my junk yard 350 and just run it,have looked at bearings ,they look good and can see it has been apart sometime,it came in a pile with a project car....so we'll see :shrug:,if it pukes I'll warm up the 327 and throw it back in....
     
  8. Nov 1, 2020
    Ohiowrangler

    Ohiowrangler Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Newark, Ohio
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    The bearing is bad, the copper color is the base metal the babbit adheres to during manufacturing. The piston has signs of scuffing, if it continues it will transfer aluminum to the cylinder wall and nothing good happens after that. Ron
     
  9. Nov 1, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Is the scuffing due to the rod bearing wearing out, bad rings, cylinder bore issues, issues with the connection rod? All of the other cylinder basically look just like, or slightly better, than the one posted above....with the exception of #8, which has much worse scuffing on the piston skirt, although the cylinder bore does not look any different (yet)....
    [​IMG]

    If the bore is within reasonable shape to just hone (I get that it probably isn't)....will new rings and bearings solve the scuffing issue? My plan is to take the block over to the machine shop this week and have them measure the bore and discuss options....obviously, but maybe unrealistically, I am hoping that honing and re-assembling will be doable, even if not ideal. If boring it out and full-on rebuild is the only option, then it probably comes home and gets put in the corner until next summer and re-assess then. At least I feel like I am learning and getting closer to having enough info to make a reasonable decision....
     
  10. Nov 1, 2020
    Ohiowrangler

    Ohiowrangler Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Normally lack of lubrication on the cylinder walls
     
  11. Nov 1, 2020
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
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    That upper rod bearing looks like it had excessive oil clearance judging by how it wore.
     
  12. Nov 2, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    So I guess its time to figure out what to do next....Think its still worth taking to the machine shop to get cylinder bore measurements? Basically, if it needs bored, then its out of my price range to finish the rebuild given all the additional stuff like new pistons, resizing the rods, and probably formal valve grind and head work at that time too....Maybe I am holding out false hope for a low percentage chance that the cylinders could still just be honed and refresh it with all new bearing and cam etc, but hey, hope is a good thing, when the other (more likely) option is its a core that will soon be a garage decoration....its all good...there is always risk when you buy a used engine...
     
  13. Nov 2, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I would guess that with the visible rod bearing wear, new shells would still have too large of clearance - guessing that is how it ends up spun?
     
  14. Nov 2, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    That depends on the motor. The bearings are supposed to take the brunt of the wear, not the crankshaft. Often you can get by with new bearings and not turning the crank. You would need to measure the crank to see.
     
  15. Nov 2, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    was referring to the rod bearings as those are the ones that show a lot of wear....although the idea is pretty much the same....more of a theoretical question, as trying to understand what happens if bearing clearances are too high.....
     
  16. Nov 2, 2020
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Spokane Valley, WA
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    If you’d be happy with 20k miles, I’d have zero qualms about checking the oil passages, replacing the bearings with the same size replacements, new cam and new rings, a hone job, and run it. I feel like anything more than that (and anything less than an entire thorough rebuild), you’d be throwing money away. I feel like you’re at a crossroads; put it back together on the cheap and get a few good years out of it, or bite the bullet and build a new engine.

    But... I’m no engine builder. :shrug:
    But I am good at getting way too much use out of old junk. :sneak:
     
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  17. Nov 2, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    the sbc is very forgiving...
    :goodidea:
     
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  18. Nov 2, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I agree with ITLKSEZ. It won't be perfect, but it should run well to at least 20,000 miles doing that. That #8 scuffed piston ain't great, but it will certainly run for may more miles. That cylinder probably had leaky compression rings so gas and carbon leakage was interfering with the oiling of the cylinder wall.


    As for rod/main bearing clearance, generally the bulk of the wear happens on the soft bearing shell itself with very little wear the crankshaft surfaces.

    Under normal operating conditions, the bearing surfaces do not touch. A "hydrodynamic" wedge of oil holds them apart and the shear of the oil itself acts as the bearing surface. This requires the proper clearances, oil pressure, and oil flow to work. The bulk of bearing wear happens during engine startup when there is no oil pressure the is direct metal-to-metal bearing contact. Contamination can cause the bearings to wear. As the bearings wear there is more space for oil to leak out leading to a drop in oil pressure. This extra clearance combined with lower oil pressure will cause the hydrodynamic fluid wedge to stop working in some engine load/speed situations leading to even more wear. Bearings will eventually spin when the oil film is working very poorly and there is excessive mechanical bearing contact. This leads to excessive heat/friction that can cause the bearing to spin.

    Here's a paper discussing the how the fluid bearings work: https://kingbearings.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Engine-Bearings-and-how-they-work.pdf

    The main journals and large rod ends getting out of round and needing a line bore and/or resizing is more a function of stress relief over lots of load and heat cycles. It's not a wear thing. It's a usage thing. The block and rods will change shape over time.

    In your case, if the bearings indeed took the brunt of the wear and the crank didn't, simply changing the bearings will bring the clearances back to an acceptable level. If the crank main and/or rod journals are worn such that a new bearing won't bring the clearance to an acceptable level, then the crank needs to be machined down to the next standard size that cleans up the journals (typically 0.005, 0.010, 0.020 smaller than stock). Thicker bearings shells need to be used to take up the space.

    You can also get 0.002 undersized bearings that might bring the clearance withing spec with a slightly worn crank.

    That is my understanding of crankshaft wear. I'm positive others here know more about it than I do and am not offended if they correct me.
     
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  19. Nov 2, 2020
    Jw60

    Jw60 Cool school 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Check for cracks. Clean it up and you can try dye penetrate.
    I'm mostly seeing low oil / oil pressure issues.
    Pull the galley plugs shove a brush through it and show us the gunk. Wash rinse repeat.
    I'm still on the edge with the pistons.
     
  20. Nov 2, 2020
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
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    Yes, you can get by with that old junk but in the end, you might get out what you put in.
     
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