1971 Cj5 Steering Box Conversion Advice Needed

When we first converted to manual saginaw years ago we had routed our steering shaft in such a way that there was too much angle in the joint like you are saying and it indeed would give a binding feeling and then a release. In addition to checking all of your steering components for wear and slop I would also give the frame a good looking over for cracks particularly where the front frame rails meet the crossmember under the grill - the steering box puts a lot of stress on the front frame which does not always get braced sufficiently.

 

I will take some more pictures tomorrow and see if I'm able to get the pictures at the angles you're talking about. I"m going to have to lay on the ground in the snow to do this, so this isn't going to be very much fun....LOL.

The one thing that concerned me was the angle of the single U-Joint going from the drive shaft to the steering column. It was at a pretty steep angle and I think that could be where a lot of the herky-jerky issue are. I'll take a picture of it tomorrow and post it on here for you guys to give me advice about. Might have to go to a double u-joint to reduce the angle.

I appreciate everyone's input.

 

My conversion has the cloth joint. It snapped on me back in 2002 while trying to load unto a trailer lost all steering. Just thinking of how it could of been if out 4 wheel in the forest. Not happy with it and it will need to be updated one way or another soon. Or at least replaced every year if wheeling.

 

Go with a Borgeson or similar all metal u-joint and you won't have to worry abut finding and replacing the rag joint periodically. Should be available at any good bearing supply, Speedway, Jegs, Summit etc. Good luck!

 

I see a pitman arm at the steering gear that has been bent/cut/re-welded in the middle....big no-no.
As mentioned by tarry and others, just because you have a Saginaw steering conversion doesn't mean it was done properly.
I would say you need to look at all of this very closely when weather permits, and just do short drives from home in the meantime.

 

something must have been changed . with your hook up , by design . even if joint worn out . the metal pins would still steer

 

Ok, per a request for better pictures, I crawled under this thing today and took more pictures. The picture looking across toward the steering box, pitman arm, steering shaft, rag joint, etc...was taking with the camera perfectly level setting up against the bottom side of the passenger side frame, hoping to show the angle of the steering box, pitman arm and everything else (someone had mentioned mounting angles in a previous post). I took pictures of the drag link, steering stabilizer, etc...to give an idea of mounting positions and angles. Here's the link of pictures.... FORDGEARHEAD's Library

The picture of the steering shaft where it connects to the steering column concerns me. It's at a really steep angle and I don't think this is correct. Would a double u-joint solve this? According to an attachment one of you guys provided on operating angles, the maximum operating angle should be no more than 35*. This u-joint definitely looks like it's at a steeper angle than 35*.

jpflat2a---the pitman arm has not been cut or welded. What I believe you're seeing is ice dripping down the side of the pitman arm. It's cold here and snow on the ground and there's snow and ice all over the Jeep, including the suspension and steering components.

Ok guys, let me know the problems you see.....

 

Yes it appears to be a little bit to short and the joint is stretched. So once it is broken the pins will not reach out far enough.

 

Lance,

Take a look at Borgeson's website............or anyone else that sells these products.

From your column.......that joint should be replaced with a joint that matches your column diameter protrusion shaft to a Double D collapsible shaft. And based on the picture it does not seem to be an angle that I would feel is too great or that may give you a problem..............but that is the view from here and maybe it's greater than it looks?
Looking downstream at the steering gear.......there is that rag joint and just forward there seems to be another smaller U-joint..........and between those two points there seems to be perhaps a few pieces of shaft that are welded together.........I would try and clean that up by either attaching a better u-joint directly off the input shaft splines to the Double D collapsible shaft coming from the column if the angles allow or add a spline spud directly off the input shaft and then a shaft support before adding another U-joint to make the final leg back to the column...............

Plenty of good info on the Borgeson site that should help you understand what it needs..................lots of States do not allow for the welding of some of those steering components...........and also I see what JpFlat2a was talking about on the Pitman arm.......it's that blue-grey spot on the side of the arm about midway that does look like someone has cut and re-welded it.

The height of the pitman arm / drag link...........looks to be statically lower from a starting point than the tie rod is on it's horizontal plain......................if that is so then when you apply the brakes and the front end compress's under braking you are already into Bump steer.........which will give you a Herky-Jerky braking experience. Easy to correct in your case as it seems there is no need for that dropped Pitman arm where a straight one would probably work to correct that elevation difference.........again just my view from here.

Not trying to pick your project apart , just trying to give you some direction in order to make the Jeep safer.

Did you ever do the test from the steering wheel movement , while watching all the downstream components??

Collapsibility
Borgeson Universal Company :: Shafts & Supports :: Telescopic Steering Shafts
Borgeson Universal Company :: Universal Joints :: Steel Single Universal Joints
Borgeson Universal Company :: Shafts & Supports :: Shaft Supports

 

I will definitely look at the Borgeson site. Yeah when I saw that steering shaft, I wasn't too excited about the fact it is welded together to some different diameter tubing. It looks unsafe and unprofessional. Not sure what the previous owner was thinking there. I will end up replacing that shaft down the road and when I do I'm thinking I need to put a double u-joint in at the steering column and lessen the angle of that joint. And to be honest, the u-joint angle doesn't look as steep in the picture as it actually is. I can measure the angle and find out what it actually is. But I agree, all that stuff needs cleaned up and corrected.

I see what you're referring to regarding that blue-green area half way down the pitman arm. That isn't a weld, that's a chunk of ice. I noticed that also when I was underneath it today. On one of the pictures I submitted, there's a close up shot of that ice and it's not blue-green in the picture. It's just the angle I took the picture and the flash from the camera making it discolored.

You're right, the pitman arm / drag link is lower than the tie rod. So you're saying that pitman arm / drag link needs to be higher than the tie rod? If so, that would be easy to correct with a straight pitman arm. Thank you for advising me on that. I didn't know that was an issue because, honestly, I don't know what the geometry of a suspension should be. So I will put that on my list to correct along with the steering shaft and u-joints.

As far as the herky-jerky steering I was referring to, it wasn't from hitting the brakes that I was getting that from, it was from turning the steering wheel, which might be from that steep u-joint angle or maybe some sort of issue with the type of fluid being used in the p/s pump. Not sure, but I think I'll correct the u-joint and pitman arm issue first and see how it responds before I dig into the herky-jerkiness when turning the wheel.

And don't worry about picking my project apart. That's what I'm asking for you guys to do because I'm not very knowledgeable on suspension/steering geometry. So your advise is exactly what I needed to hear. So thank you for that.

To answer your question, no I haven't had a chance to test the steering wheel movement while watching all the components. I had a bunch of projects to do with the wife today and didn't get to it yet. Between the snowy weather and trying to get my carb on my 79 Bronco figured out so it will idle without dying, I haven' had much chance to dive into this Jeep. I also have to figure out how to hook up the brake lights on this Jeep. It's been rewired and there's no wires hooked up to the brake light switch, so I have to get that issue resolved. There's been a lot of modifications and upgrades done to this Jeep but there is a couple things that were not completed correctly and I'll have to fix it. But all these issues is how it was when we bought it. We've only owned the Jeep for 3 weeks and we haven't done anything to it yet other than replace the lap belts with some 3 point seat belts. This is the wife's vehicle and she doesn't want to drive it until the seat belts were installed and I get the brake lights figured out. But with the snow on the ground and needing a 4wd, she's been driving it without the brake lights working.

 

I will definitely do that when I check for the steering slop. I have a feeling I'll be replacing tie rods and wheel bearings. Hope that cleans up the steering slop and the wandering all over the road. But until it stops snowing, I'll just have to drive it like it is. The wife was driving it but it scares the crap out of her to drive so she is driving our Explorer and I'm stuck driving the Jeep, that is until I get the carb issue resolved on my 79 Bronco. Then I'll park the Jeep.

 

Since no-one has addressed the question that you have asked several times, yes, air in the system will make the steering feel jerky. Water in the system can do that also.

 

If there's air in the system, the fluid will be bubbly or milky, correct?

 

Yes , As Posi mentioned above , water in the fluid if milky could be an issue also.............normally the system by itself will purge any air from the hydraulic fluid during normal use...........unless the system is somehow sucking air from somewhere?......Check those line fittings for leaks.....

 

I will definitely look into that. Thanks for the advise. I may be able to inspect some of this stuff tonight after work if the snow stops. We'll see how it goes. First thing I'm going to focus on is the wheel bearings and tie rods. Need to find the source of the sloppy steering and the wandering. Once I solve that issue, the wife will feel more comfortable about driving it. Then I will focus on the steering shaft and power steering issue.

 

Trust me, I'd rather be driving the Bronco. I've been working on the Bronco for a couple weeks now. Trying to track down a small vacuum leak. It runs great on the cruise circuit but won't idle; it slowly stalls out. Vacuum gauge indicates a vacuum leak and that's what I initially suspected also. I'm currently waiting on a rebuild kit to arrive from Summit for my Holley Street Avenger carb. I have a 570 and a 670. They have been sitting for a while and I rebuilt the 570 and I can't get it to idle. Tried the 670 and its clogged somewhere because it won't squirt fuel when in hit the throttle. So its currently soaking in Chem-Dip carb cleaner. Ordered some intake to carb gaskets also and will replace the one on the manifold under the 2" spacer. Just waiting for my parts to arrive. This has been driving me insane and I really miss driving the Bronco. But for now we don't have a choice but to drive the Jeep because we both need a 4wd.