Power Steering Redux

Hey all,

Just curious what length pitman arm is stock on a CJ once they offered power steering.

The arm I currently have is ~6.5" C-C and does not offer enough room between the tie rod and drag link end. There is roughly .25" of space available, so it looks like a 5.75-6" C-C arm would be perfect.

Here is what i am working with:


Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks! So close to being done!

 

Manual and power pitman arms are the same length in a CJ Saginaw box application from the factory.
The length is 6.5" C/C for both.
The shorter arm will affect your turning capability.
Can't see the picture you posted FYI.

 

Thanks for the reply. Not sure why the image isn't showing for you. It does for me... I will play around with it.

Do you know what vehicle may have used a flat 6" C/C arm?

I am aware of the geometry change and I think I should be ok with a minor length change to the arm.

 

I see the photo...it's real close with the tie rod flip.
Sorry, I can't help with the shorter arm info.

 

Thanks for the help.

I wonder if I should look into moving the box forward 2-3". Part of the issue I originally ran into was hitting the shackle bolts, but I guess if I flip the bolt, it should fit:

 

4wd.com has a Crown pitman arm listed for power steering that they noted as 5 1/2" center to center.

 

The front axle with forward shackles will travel about 3/4" forward under full compression......Obviously the straight ahead position is the closet's point and also the most important.

You need to measure the length of your steering arms from spindle center to where the tie rod attaches.........I can't see the Passengers side to see if you have a two hole or single hole arm......In either case that C/C length in a perfect World should be equal to the length of the Pittman Arm from C/C...........this keeps the steering ratio at 1:1.......a slight loss of length at the steering arm is acceptable as long as it's no more than 10%........and everything else clears...........moving the gear forward 1" may be your only alternative.
Unfortunately that gearbox placement should have been covered by whomever first installed the Saginaw Box.

 

Thanks for the input and picture.

The installer was a younger, impatient me that was rushing to get it done. So, that was something I neglected to take into consideration.

I also changed steering gear boxes recently which is when I first noticed this problem. I am not sure what box I had, but the box I have now is the J20 box.

I will measure the steering arm tonight. I assume I should measure to where the draglink attaches vs the tie rod? It is a two hole arm.

Moving the box forward is not the worst thing in the word and will let me fix some of the "welds" that didn't come out so good. Again...I should highlight, "younger" and "impatient."

 

Hey , No Problem on the "Young & Impatient" .........everyone has a First day on the Job!

Yes , on the two hole to where the Drag link attaches.

 

Haha...Well, this old guy now has a problem with the new guy. Damn kids!

Anyway, I will measure it up tonight. I have seen different posts on late 70s CJ pitman arm lengths, so maybe a 5.5" C/C arm will work and would solve my issues without a big setback. Hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst.

Thanks again for all the help as I fix the issues I created for myself.

 

I believe the 5.5" arm will be a dropped arm...................you can call Parts Mike in California......he has a shelf full of different arms.

 

If you were to move the box forward, won't you have a problem with the steering box input shaft length ?
You would most likely have to extend that shaft as well.

 

Yes. I will be taking that into consideration. Hopefully there is enough material to extend the collapsible shaft out. If not, I guess I will need to buy a new one.

I took some measurements last night and I am going to try to move it forward 1.5 inches and up .75 inches to clear the shackle. Once I take it apart and mock fit, if I can get away with moving it forward only .75-1" I will.

 

I started the process of moving the box forward. First, I drove it around town...cause, why not?

Anyway, got it in the garage, took the box off and started to cut into the welds with a cutting wheel. In my head I thought, "well, this won't be too bad. Just cut the welds out, move it forward, tack it, mock, weld, go!"

Turns out it might be more of a pita to undo those welds than I originally thought.

I am working late tonight, but will buy some cutting wheels and get to it again tomorrow.

I took some quick measurements while the box was still on. This should give me a good guideline on where to move the box to:


I will post some more pics as I have updates.

 

I finally got the mounting plate off the frame after an hour long battle.


Unfortunately, while wrenching on that, I noticed a crack in the frame develop. Upon closer inspection, I could see rust inside the crack, so who knows how long that has been there. There was a weld on the inside of the frame horn, but it looks like that did not fix the issue years ago. So, I cleaned it all up, took a cut off wheel and ran right down the crack as best I could. I then drilled a 1/4" hole at the end of the crack and welded it all back together.



My welds on the inside were not my best, but it looked like I got good penetration, so I am going to move forward. The welds on the outside came out a little better.







After that I tacked on a new plate to box in the frame and will get to mocking up the new steering box location.

Moving slowly, but hopefully should be on the road again in two weeks.

 

Turn up your welder a little...........the filler metal looks like it is puddling on top of the base material in both those pictures. Take a few pieces of scrap metal of equal thickness and try it off the project...............keeping in mind that the frame due to it's size & heat sink ability will require a higher setting..........make sure the metal is clean with no rust in the weld zone.

 

Thanks for the input. The welder is as high as it goes. I only have a 135 mig welder.

When I did the inside weld first, I could see the filler metal fuse through the crack on the other side, so I am hoping that was a good sign. Once I have it rolling again, I may take it to a local shop that has helped me before and see if they will put a bead on the outside if I grind down my weld.

I am wondering if I should also put a plate from the frame down to the hanger and a piece of angle iron the the corner of the frame.

Thoughts?

 

erhuff,

No Problem.........I only make the comment in the interest of safety as once you close that area off , it's hard to get back in there to make another repair.

In the second picture above ( and I assume this is what you meant by stating "from the frame down to the hanger" ) it looks like there has already been a repair to the flange just forward of where your spring mount attaches. If your steering gear vertical plate does not extend forward of where that repair weld is then another plate that continues to box that section forward would be a good Idea to stabilize that section of frame rail from the constant beating it takes from the spring hanger forces below..........do the same on the other side.

A steering gear brace from the sector shaft housing to the opposite side frame rail should also be added to further cancel any twisting motion the steering gear may have on those frame rails.

Your eyes on any other needs are better suited than my view.........so take a look and add what you feel is necessary and have your local welder take a look also.

 

Cool. Thank you for the input. It's too bad you are not closer by to take a look in person.

The plate to box the frame will surpass that weld, and I was mostly referring to the outside of the frame.

The crack looked like it happened when the frame flexed in a compression manner. So, the angle iron might help prevent that.

As I look at this and try to keep it strong, would a piece of angle iron on the inside of the frame to create a "square" over the crack make sense? In other words, Cut the iron to be the length of the front frame horn and run it so it creates a channel inside the frame. See below for terribly image:

The black line is the frame "C," the red is the proposed piece of angle iron (which would probably be 1" x 1", the blue is the new weld I just applied. I could be way off with this suggestion, just curious if that might help the strength.

drawing

I do plan on adding a steering brace before I do any offroading trips. I am still trying to figure out how to make a clamp that sits high enough up on the sector shaft housing.

 

I don't like to cover something up like you have suggested that either can't be easily seen or worked on later...............Your best bet is to V-out / grind out what you have and built it back up with a good penetrating weld.....the crack you mentioned probably goes all the way through but it looks like your spring hanger is in the way of seeing that from the bottom so at the very least I would use what's left of that hanger and perhaps add a short weld at the ends on the bottom.

I always try to fix frame repairs as if I will never have to go back and do it a second time.............and the reason for that is I feel that the cheap mild steel material is only going to withstand the work hardening , cracking & flex for so long.

If your vertical plate extends beyond the crack on the inside that will at least strengthen that bottom flange where your hanger is attached and not allow it to flex any longer...........

I also did not see a clear picture of how you were bolting your steering gear to the frame.........what I mean is do you have anything in place between the outside frame rail and your plate that would offer any resistance to the crushing effect of that hollow frame rail? Meaning when you crank down on those large bolts that attache the steering gear box?............It also looks like the mounting holes on the outside rail are quite a bit over sized? And I the inside I did not see any spacers between the frame plate and the gear box, Did I miss those?

I normally do a vertical gusset inside the cavity along side the bolt pattern or add a piece of tubing welded on both sides whereby your mounting bolts can pass through the frame and further resist the crushing effect of torquing those gear box bolts down.........if there is no strength in that mounting area , your gear box bolts will have a tendency to come loose as things move around.

I think your on the right track ............just clean up what you have and think about where the forces came from that did the damage and go about correcting them................and if that means you get your friend to weld it up with a larger machine.............I think that's money well spent in a critical area such as steering.

And don't worry about the questions.............I'll help you as much as I can.