Fino's 1970 Mini Build Thread

I am kind of at a point of reflection and thinking about projects, upgrades, improvements etc for the cj. I feel changes and upgrades are often tied or associated to other changes to work in combination, so this is kind of me thinking my way through some of those ideas to see where I want to go with the cj projects, and what I might have missed. Read through the details at your own risk of boredom or frustration with unjustified and inexplicable reasoning.....I write this stuff for my own benefit and re-visitation.....

Honestly, other than taking care of seasonal maintenance, nothing HAS to be done - and so that is kind of what I am thinking my way through here just a bit.....Most of these thoughts are nothing new - many have been covered ad nauseam - but each individual has to sort of find the right combination of build aspects/upgrades/budget for their use, goals, etc.

Sometimes the biggest challenge is truly figuring out what you want the jeep to be...the current iteration of my cj has been pretty static for 4-5 years and has been very rewarding. It wheels essentially 95% of what I want to wheel without issue - trips like the Rubicon and challenging Colo and Moab classics. And yet, I can pretty much DD it, and use it anytime, anywhere, in town, or on trail. Of course, there are limitations (read short wheelbase) to even a solidly built ecj5 in today's modern jeeping world, and the winch usually gets me through the last 5% of what it can't drive through (driver incompetence notwithstanding). So, if there is one thing I'd really like to do improve on it (minus extending the wheelbase), it would be to add some more front traction, and of course, this is where the can of worms begins....

I drive my jeep a lot, including as a bit of a DD over the past 5 years, and have been trying to figure out the ideal front axle set-up. It currently has the OEM D27a, open case, and works reasonably well. That is, it hasn't broken, it works well when driving on snow covered roads and DDing, and seems appropriately matched to the ross steering (with 1-piece tie-rod conversion). So right off the start, we see two of the issues I am trying to resolve:
1) D27 traction device....My frequent DD road use, including on winter roads, drives my preference for a street friendly traction device, most ideally a selectable locker (which I have in the rear for the same reasoning). Of course there is no selectable locker for the D27a....so the can opens and options like powr-lok or lock-right have to be considered, or go all out and swap to a D30 and go with a selectable locker.
2) Steering concerns....with manual ross box, the steering effort in 4lo when in the big rocks is kind of maxing out what is functional - although this is really only in limited terrain - most of the time I can manage it pretty darn well. But adding a traction device to front will change that, and to what extent do I need to upgrade my steering to match? Rebuild the ross box and worm gear pins and upgrade bell crank with tapered roller bearing, or go Manual saggy box, power saggy box?

So, I see this as more of a front end project that has to combine the traction and axle changes with appropriate steering, and of course, the end result also has to be functional for my usage goals. But, my jeep usage, might be changing. With the move to MT, the change in work schedule and commuting, the functionality of the 58 wagon, the cj can be a bit more of a garage to trail type jeep (although I still prefer cruising around town in it with the top down over anything else). Thus, I am open to considering upgrades that might be more trail-focused at the expense of road usage....in other words, a lock-right in the front, and possibly power steering (I truly don't like the feel of the saggy PS on road - but if the rig is more trail focused and fully locked, it MIGHT be an acceptable trade-off).

So here are my thoughts on the pros/cons:
1) D27 traction device....the lure of the easy install lock-right has pull, but not sure I can tolerate it usage in more winter street conditions, and I feel like it could overwhelm manual steering in the tough conditions. I feel this route may necessitate going full power steering, and probably accepting more limited use of the jeep during the winter. So, I am leaning towards a powr-lok install - it comes with more complicated install, but maybe its more tolerable on the winter street, and maybe one can manage manual steering with it? Of course, for all that work and trade-off, will it actually help with wheeling? In the big rocks on a swb jeep, the front looses traction not because of surface conditions (sand, gravel, loose soil), but rather due to lifting a tire, and then I think only a locker is going to help.....Its a lot of hassle to install the powr-lok, and it could be a disappointing result - some of the Colo trip participants have experienced this....but I've also seen Bob drive his double powr-lok'ed jeep over some big stuff (and to what extend does his sm420 allow for the LSDs to work better - or maybe its just those amazing tires!)...I am willing to give up off-road traction gains (as compared to the Lock-right) with the LSD assuming it has more use on winter roads...but maybe it sucks on winter roads as well?

2) Steering...I am thinking manual saggy box is the way to go here. I like the road feel, I like the traditional manual steering, it flat tows with less concern, and if installed with some foresight, could be set-up for a relatively easy swap to a power box in the future. A couple have also suggested moving to a 2-hole knuckle with the longer steering arm gives some additional leverage on the steering. I have less thoughts going on with this, other than I am not sure how easily the steering shafts will all fit together given my front dump exhaust and frame mounted MC, and also the steering box clearance with the winch mount. I have not disliked my Ross box at all - its been completely usable both on and off-road.....but I also have concerns about putting money into rebuilding the ross box and machining the bell crank etc....I am also thinking this is the time to flip the tie-rods....

So, I guess I am kind of at that stage where I see it as one of two options:
1) go with powr-lok and manual steering of some sort...accept limited off-road traction gains, but hope that manual steering is functional, and that winter road driving is tolerable
otherwise,
2) go with a lock-right and power saggy box....and accept that winter road driving gets sketchy, and general on road steering feel is diminished, all for bigger off-road traction gains. In other words, building the jeep more and more for the trails, and most likely driving it less and less for other uses (which would be disappointing in some ways).

Right now, I am leaning towards the more 'conservative' route and trying to keep the jeep as usable for everything as possible without making too many changes....I also have a D27 powr-loc on the shelf, and with the front frame horns already boxed, think I can get a saggy mount done reasonably well. And of course the reality is, the winter work season will swamp me working 120/130 days, and I'll get nothing done on the jeep, and when next summer wheeling season comes around, I'll want to drive it and not wrench on it.....That perfect cj6 waiting to be sprung over on 35s with selectable lockers front and rear etc is just out there waiting to be found.....

 

I assume this is only a disc brake set-up? I'd prefer to keep the 11" drums....as mentioned above, the reasoning isn't necessarily based on logic or building the best wheeler - there is a personal, impossible to define aspect of time period authenticity that is important to me even if its not practical. I think I could remove the caliper bracket and swap the backing plates over - should all be doable. It is true that I don't like the wider axle aspect of the D30 or the even slightly wider roxor 44.

I did have a YJ in the mid 90s with power steering - I think - it was pretty stripped down 4cyl base type model. Its possible it had manual steering as a base model, but I think all YJs had PS....its been so long ago, not sure I remember much about it other than the anemic 4cyl didn't like 31s on the hwy in the mts of Colo.
The two PS jeeps that are more applicable to my dislike of them includes the the one in my cj7 and the current saggy box in my 58. The Cj7 was originally a manual saggy box when I got it, and when it blew up, I replaced it with an OEM style power box. I got the pump, bracket and box (hoses and all) from a JY off a cj (this was all for a 258). The steering box leaked pretty badly, so it eventually got replaced with a direct replacement from NAPA. It drove fine I guess with the power box (I was running 33x12.5s at the time), but they are just so 'mushy' with no road feel. But it was also an improvement over the manual box just because the manual box had a lot of slop....sorta similar to my current issue with the Ross box - the amount of slop is getting to be too much. Finally, the saggy PS set-up in the 58 is the old style with the canned ham pump and 4 bolt box (I'd have to check my records to see exactly which series box it is) - its the worst of the bunch. I think its from a late 70s-early 80s AMC era FSJ. I probably do need to add caster shims to help it out a bit, but its so uninteresting and roadless feel that I would seriously consider putting a manual box in its place. Plus, with manual set-ups, they never squeal a belt - just a personal

you should drive it in the snow...its just salt and rust...I fully expect my cj will not last forever...use it up....

I do remember that the cj7 with manual box did have a lot of wheel kick-back....its interesting to me that the Ross box does not kick back as much - wonder why? Part of it could be the amount of friction in the Ross linkages helps absorb the kick back, but overall, it still produces good road feel.

 

true - but in the other direction, it means easier steering for a manual set-up....I've been running without a steering dampener for quite a few years with the ross set-up....Could add one with the manual saggy box and it might be about the same?

 

Kind of wondering if I am on the right track here with a saggy box mount....this is the simple AA mount plate (3 bolt obviously):


Basically, I would weld this on the inside of the frame rail, which is already boxed. The box mounting bolts go through the frame rail from the outside (using sleeves inside the frame rail), and thread into the steering box mount? Obviously, there are a lot of factors that go into finding the sweet spot for the location of the box mount, but assuming that is found, the physical mounting is basically the 3 bolts coming from outside-in and threading into the threaded box mount holes.

 

Basically, we are recreating a later CJ style saggy swap....but placement of the box and Routing of the steering shaft is a bit different due to the v6 exhaust and angle of the column (steeper in the early cjs) and the column is placed a bit more inward on the earlies. Plus the OEM PS bracket on the intermediates is for an open channel frame, and mine is now boxed.
I am in the very small minority, but I like my ross box better than the power saggy swap in my wagon. You're the only one that might suggest I am reasonable....but I do think manual saggy box could work well here for me.

 

this is sorta what I am thinking.....manual steering is a big piece of what I want/like in my old jeep (along with things like manual drum brakes, through the floor pedals, low back seats etc)...so while many keep bringing up the comparison of manual vs power saginaw, I view it more like rebuild ross set-up vs manual saginaw.

yes...been looking at that one as well....but have a different question regarding the 'off-set' of the mounting holes. Does the 'off-set' of the holes allow you to get the mounting bolts through the plate and thread into the box without having to go through the frame rail? Obviously, how you position the box plays a role here, but if one of the holes ends up needing to go through the frame rail, then there is a gap to fill. The 3-hole manual mount plate I posted earlier fits flat on the inside of the frame rail and that is the reason I was wondering if it might work better for those of us that lack some fab skills (minus the discussion of 3 vs 4 hole mounts). As there is no 'scale' for these, I have to sort of guess from pics on the saggy thread, but it does look like some have placed their boxes such that the top holes are just on top of the frame rail, the bottom holes and under the frame rail, and thus no need for any of the mount bolts to go through the frame rail (but a higher mount like that brings other issues such as the cross-member into play). And there is also the question of trying to avoid conflict with my existing winch mounts that go through the sides of the frame rail. The flat 3 bolt mount is again seemingly easier as I can just drill through the flat mount. The cut-out circle on the 4 bolt mount could be more problematic (or not depending on positioning).

 

thanks - those pics are very helpful