building/refurbishing a frame

so i started a thread about boxing a frame and got tons of great feedback. now i have the frame and am trying to put a plan of attack together for it. the back end of this had the fire go over it pretty good and i will be doing one of two things; either clean off all the rust and decide it is good to go, or cut it off and rebuild the rear of it.

looking at the frame, moving forward from the rear, the condition gets better and better, but i plan on stripping it of all that is bad (mainly the rust), then putting a good coat of something or other on it, then a nice paint job or top coat.

:? i am looking for ideas for dealing with the rust and existing paint removal...
-my neighbor, an older navy guy, swears by this stuff called 'JASCO'. it is some type of metal treatment that you put on with a brush and it is supposed to strip the metal to its 'bare bones' and basically turns it black. then you paint it he says. i used this stuff on an axle housing i was refurbishing last year and i thought the stuff was weird. it did strip it i guess, but left it kind of sticky and i cleaned that off before i painted it.
-another friend of mine told me about this stuff called por15 (they have a website) pretty expensive, but it says you clean the metal with a marine-clean (or any water based cleaner) then paint this por15 on. supposed to stop and seal the rust so it will not spread, and will never rust again. i do not really like the idea of painting OVER rust though, i would rather it be removed and treated so as to not come back again.
-there is always the option to sand blast it, but from what i have read on others postings, i don't want to do that myself, and i'm trying to avoid taking it somewhere and paying someone to do so. (trying to do all the work myself here, ya, i'm cheap like that!)

:? i am also looking for ideas on coating the frame...
-one friend of mine says rhino line it. he sounds like the commercial. i probably won't do this unless someone tells me they did it and it was the greatest decision they ever made.
-there is this por15 stuff which is used for coating frames, then i can paint over it as well, this is an option i am kind of leaning towards, just i don't plan on painting it over the rust.
-does anyone else have any ideas of what to use to coat this frame once i get to that point?

i will add pics later, i tried to do so as attachments and they are too big

thanks for the help

 

I cleaned mine as much as possible with a wire brush on an angle grinder,hand brush's and scrapers.Then cleaned with dawn dishwashing soap and water, dryed thoroughly ,wiped everything down with mineral spirits,primed with a slightly thined rustoleum primer, then a second coat un- diluted rustoleum black. The gloss black kind of shows( enhances) any inperfections although it seems to be easyer to clean mud or road grime off it and it will eventually dull down.Its held up good for many years now.

 

Hmm. Rustoleum, eh? I've never had good luck with it. It never seems to get really hard, and it doesn't hold back the rust very well.

I've used "Rust Encapsulator" from Eastwood and it works well. I think it and POR-15 are one of a class of paints called moisture-cured urethanes. When dry, they are very tough and pull the moisture out of any rust you paint over (the moisture is incorporated in the curing). Seems to work as well as any paint to stop the rust. 'Rust Bullet' is another brand. Seems like the main difference in the various brands is what's used as a filler in the paint (aluminum powder, carbon black, zinc salts, whatever) - the filler is supposed to lock together to form an airtight barrier when dry. Water out, no air = no rust. All are much more expensive than conventional paint though.

The best way to proceed is to take the frame down to bare metal and paint with either an etching primer and a top coat, or with an epoxy primer. Note that an epoxy primer will harden so hard that a top coat won't stick to it after it's dried more than a few days.

The stuff that turns rust black is a 'rust converter' that changes red rust (hematite) into black iron oxide (magnetite). The simplest compound that does this is phosphoric acid, but there are lots of compounds that will convert rust. It's ok, but it only serves as a better substrate for paint - it's not a coating in itself.

 

The phosphoric acid you can buy by the gallon at marine stores. Boaters call it "Ospho".

 

The route I took was the expensive route, which was POR 15's Marine Clean and then their Metal Ready (phosphoric acid), and then POR 15 paint. I think any good degreaser and a good soap and water wash could've replaced the Marine Clean. I still had to do a lot of scrubbing on areas with heavily caked-on grease and then repeat the process if it wasn't completely grease-free. Although before I applying the phosphoric acid, I tried to remove as much rust as I can with the wirewheel/grinder/flapdisc...POR 15 recommends that their paint be applied to rust rather than bare metal. They say adhesion is better since it clings to the rough surface of the rust. I haven't had any problem with it painted on bare metal.

I'd use the cheapest rust encapsulator type paint. also, once you have the rust covered, you can put a coat of regular paint that is compatible as an added protection. POR 15 will fade if not top coated. That stuff dries like hard plastic.

my neighbor got his whoile frame dipped in some caustic solution...it was clean and he was convincing me to load my frame on the back of the truck and bring it to the shop that does it. I can't remember how much it costs but it was expensive..

 

this is what I did.

wire wheeled the entire frame over and over. it came out really nice. cleaned it all with xylene, then blew it with 100psi. then I used 2 coats of Eastwoods rust encapsulator, which is pretty much the same as por15, except you have to top coat por 15 and don't have to top coat eastwoods....which was cool cause I liked the red color the eastwood RE was. but then I painted it gray bedliner. durabak to be exact. its very rubbery and flexible so it won't crack. very expensive. the whole process took me about 3 months, workin a few hours here and there. maybe a full day or two.

i have a gallon of ospho, the rust treatment that turns black. seems to work good, but you have to wait like 3 days for it to fully dry. sprayed it inside the hat channels of my body.

 

i sand blasted mine and still had to clean some areas with a scraper and wire brush were it was caked on. then had it powder coated im in mine $500. the powder coat is tuff and i built my body savers so rocks would hit them first

 

I also used a combination of wire wheels on my angle grinder and die grinder to get to the tight spots. Eastwood's Rust Encapsulator, and two coats of their Chassis Black. I really like the way it turned out. Now I need to grind some of it off in order to box the frame. I wanted to have the insides of the frame coated before I boxed. Careful of those wires which seem to fly off and go through your pants into your leg! FWIW I only used about 2/3 of a quart of Rust Encapsulator, and a full quart of the Chassis Black, which did the frame and bumpers. I bought two extra quarts to do the axles and such. Not cheap, but it seems like tough paint, and goes on easily with a brush or roller.

 

On my previous CJ-5 (a '77) I did the axles and D-300 T-Case by using an angle grinder with a wire cup-brush. Any stubborn rust I treated with "Naval Jelly" which is a thick pink colored gel that disolves the rust and washes off with water. WORKS GREAT, I have used it since I was 15 on all kinds of automotive projects including removing rust from the inside of motorcycle fuel tanks, but I admit I havent seen it in the Home Depot's, etc in a while.

I like the Hammer-tone paint for durability, but it's pricey. Good quality paint, like Krylon, etc will do well if you are patient enough to let it completely cure for 8 to 10 hours or so between coats. I have found that Plasticote engine enamel works great too. Try using a self-etching primer over the bare metal for even better results with only a little more work.

Surface prep and patience are the key for a long-lasting finish even using less expensive products. Trying to put on heavy coats every 15 minutes will result in a bad finish even using the best and most expensive products.

Alternately, look around your area for a good but not well known powdercoater. I found a small biker shop close to here that does powdercoating for a very reasonable price because they are not that well known.

Just my 2 cents worth of free advice.

 

Strip:


Sandblast:



Prime. The yellow you see here is 2k Urethane Surfacer, but is an uneccessary step if your frame is in good shape or you don't care too much about a pristine finish. Underneath is a Nason 2 part epoxy primer. I highly recommend the Nason 2 part; the stuff cures extremely hard, sticks to everything, and is a great value for the money. The surfacer sands very easy (even a kid can do it!) and will fill minor pitting left from scale:


Top coat with semi-gloss "tractor paint" implement enamel from your local TSC. Add 1 pint hardener to the gallon. Gallon of hardener and paint will run you about $35, and you'll have enough left over to do your windshield frame when you're done:

 

I will be doing this same thing. I decided on an etching primmer. I want to do all the work myself. So I used an angle grinder and a wire wheel. WOrked well. But I never got into the corners well. Nor could I get into some of the crappy factory welds. SO I felt I was leaving rust on it and I stoped until I get a better idea.

But the etching primmer seemed to work well. And if you topcoat with TSC impliment paint, I understand it works very good.

Powdercoating is not that good for a trail jeep from what I've been told. It works well until the powdercoat gets chipped, lets mointure in and and then the rust starts to form under the powdercoat. But I have not seen this, nor talked to someone that this has happened to. Just what I've been told.

POR 15 would seem to have the same issue but I don't think it doens. Eliminate the O2 and no rust but what about a scratch that allows O2 to reach the metal? Never got a good response on that question. But it see,ms like a goood system.


So after all the research I've done, I think I'm going to wire wheel it, spot sandblast or use a drimmel and a wire wheel inthe corners, coat liberally inside and out with Ospho, use and etching primmer, then topcoat with implement paint.

I want it to be eaisly repareable and someting I can just touch up. I want it to be durable. I also want it to look decient.

I also think it will be fairly inexpensive vs. lots of other ways to do it. And I can do it all myself.

 

They depend on the toughness of the urethane paint. Same as any paint - scratch it and it no longer protects the surface. The POR-15 paint is very tough, as long as it's not exposed to sunlight.

 

But how reparable is it? If we find a big chunk knocked off, can we just sand, prep and re-por15 it and get as good a repair as if it were just primmer and paint?

If so, even factoring in the cost, I think it's a good product.

 

thanks for all the great responses.

durability is my #1. this is a trail only jeep that will be treated like a red-headed stepchild. i have heard great things about the por-15 and how hard it is. does it hold up to scratches? and somebody said it works better to paint it on over the rust as it will adhere better than to bare metal. seems to me i want to get rid of the rust though...

by the way, thanks jayhawkclint for the nice pics of your process. that is definately how i want mine to turn out. the sand blasting looks like it worked out really well for you. i can get a sand blaster pretty cheap and do it myself it seems.

what i have been thinking about is my final product being red-just a bright solid red frame. don't know why, i just feel it is going to look sharp, i'm sure it will show some rock rash on it, but i'm cool with that.

so strip the rust off with brushes, wire wheels, sanders, etc. i may decide to blast it instead. clean the hell out of it- seems like some good soapy water will be fine or should i spring for the 'marine clean' or whatever brand? anybody have a preference in the por-15 vs. the eastwood encapsulator? is it worth the extra $10 for por-15 quart? my buddy seemed to like the por-15. he (and the mfg-i called them a couple minutes ago) say to apply the topcoat of my choice within 2-6 hours of the por-15, otherwise the stuff hardens and topcoat won't adhere to it unless i scuff it up.

also, if i brush this por-15/eastwood stuff on, does it come out pretty smooth? enough to spray on a topcoat? or will i need to sand it down before i spray it on? i don't need it to be show quality by any means, but i don't want it to show a bunch of brush strokes...especially if i paint it red, it will probably show it more.

thanks all, cheers

 

I've used POR15 on my house's swamp cooler and didn't apply the topcoat immediately. The topcoat is peeling off and I can see that the POR15 underneath was smooth and shiny. POR15 self levels well. I did two coats with 2 hours in between and no brush marks at all.

 

great, good to know. thanks. i think i am leaning towards that stuff, and i will be sure to topcoat quickly.

 

Sunlight doesn't affect POR15's qualities, it just doesn't have an ultraviolet inhibitor so the color bleaches and changes. You don't HAVE to topcoat it, only if you want it to stay pretty

 

Isn't powder coat just a layer of plastic, melted onto the steel? Thats why it will rust when scratched and bubble up- delaminating?? I think a lot of coatings do this unless the steel is chemically altered, like what galvinzing does?

I think (at this time) I will do the chem. coating, then prime, then paint! I have used a marine primer, Pettit's trailer coat, as a primer with pretty good results (it has alu. powder in it so it's silver in color. It also needs to be recoated within a certian time AND top coated! You will need good ventilation or the proper mask, otherwise you will be crusing at 20,000 ft. WOW!!! Won't make that mistake again!!!

Dale

 

thanks everyone. i appreciate the replies.

should i specifically use a topcoat that comes with the product i will use (ex/ por-15, used with thier topcoat)? or can i use any paint over the stuff?

also, i'm leaning towards sandblasting the frame now. any tips or do's and don'ts for this? and i am thinking about going a puchasing a unit, anything that i should specifically look for? a max psi, certain type of gun, etc.? (i'm not too familiar with them, obviously) and, what grit should i blast it with? and any specific type of blasting material, or just what ever is cheap?

thanks all, i can't wait to get going on this!

 

The limiting issue is typically your compressor. Good industrial machines will eat up air at 100 CPM or more. Most of the smaller home units want 7-20 CFM.
Harbor freight and Northern Tool both have small home units in the $70-$200 range.