Gutting the drivetrain!

I've made a couple of posts in this section about the building of my Jeep and amidst all the great advise to keep it like it is, I've decided to change up some stuff... alot of stuff.
I don't know if this is the right place so please forgive me if it's not but here it is.

This Jeep runs great and everything works exceptionally well. I'm keeping the motor which is the little dauntless... I'm taking out the tcase which is factory (I get 'em confused but does a "T-90" sound right? or is it "T-18"?), the 3 speed transmission (also factory), both front and rear factory axles (front D25 or 7? rear D44? I don't know but they are both offset to oneside, driver I think) with 11 inch drums and both driveshafts, all of which works very VERY well. I'd prefer to sell it all at once. I have no idea what it's all worth but I am certain that it's worth more running/driving/driveable than sitting in the dirt so here it is. Come drive it first. I'll take it out and get it to you somehow.

 

Its a dana 18 transfercase. The rear end would be dana 44.
I gotta ask why, the dana 44 is a decent rear end even as a 2 piece, the dana 18 will easily handle more hp than even your Liberty is capable of making and thats being conservative. I can understand swapping the 3 speed transmission and the front axle in favor of an open knuckle design and a 4 speed but not everything at once.
What do you hope to gain for the amount of money and time invested? I ran a dana 27 for years before upgrading to a dana 30, still running my 3 speed and I've had it to Tellico 3x and to Windrock a couple of times not to mention local trail riding with friends and its never failed, in fact none of my drivetrain has ever failed. Its your jeep and obviously you can do what you want but it sounds like you think your gonna tear it all up with even minor trail rides, unless you like hammering the skinny pedal alot the stock parts are pretty tough.

 

Mike, I know you know Jeeps and machinery so I'm not trying to patronize you. Honestly, I'm NOT worried about breaking this stuff by a long shot. I grew up in a CJ 5 and we put 'em through heck and never had a hickup! I realize and understand that a major factor in parts durability for a particular application is the weight of the machine its driving... that's why these little light weight babies work so well for so long.

Since you asked, I'll tell you. I've gotten used to the finer things technology has brought me so I think I'll use it to my advantage. 50 years has gone by and although little has changed in the basic form and function of a 4x4, ALOT has still changed. I'm not heavy on the skinny pedal at all, I just try to be as smart as possible. I have 6 and 3 year old sons and a 1 week old son. The 6 year old is already going out wheeling with me on Jamborees, and its only a matter of time before the 3 yr and 1 week olds join us. I'm gutting it because I want a very, very reliable fun buggy to wheel that is even more safe than reliable and I don't want to wince everytime I scratch it. By safe I don't mean a good rollcage. I mean full secure cage, good seats and full harness seat belts. I also am incorporating alot of late model stuff too like the new JK Rubicon axles with lockers and full disc brakes, beefed 700r4 tranny, a "rocktrac" 4:1 tcase (out of a Rubicon), entirely rebuilt brake system and I'm working right now to acquire a 3.7 liter V6 w/ 3,100 miles on it all so I may be looking at ditching the dauntless too. It just depends on what I finally decide to do. I do like the dauntless because it's simple to tinker with but still... I'm not doing much of the work, just have the ideas and the money so I'm paying a professional to build it for me.

You may ask, "Why the heck don't you just buy a Rubicon?" The answer is because I have a CJ5. Besides, how many clean Rubicons do you see around? How many clean CJs?

Know anyone interested in a good drivetrain?

 

FYI: you would be time and (lots) of money ahead to sell the -5 and buy a used rub. but the time your're done, you could have bought at least one new longwheelbase rubicon.

 

I don't understand what kind of tech help is being asked for here. What am I missing?

 

Not knocking the setup at all, but you could build better axles for alot less $ than what those are gonna cost you. You can also have a better t-case for less than that if you just get a 300 and put the lomax gears in it. That setup would be changing alot of different things, like which side the drop is on in the tcase and everything else. Personally, if you're wanting to change that much to get a more up to date rig with a V6, I would run a Chevy 4.3 and a th350. I just don't know many people that have luck with the 700r4's holding up. From there, the 300 with the lowmax gears and bigger shafts makes it just like an atlas t-case. Then I would just get some waggy axles and build them with chromoly shafts, and you could even put ARB's and all in there, and come out alot better, for less $.

Just my .02

 

Dude... honestly, your inquisitiveness (?) is fun and actually you've helped me confirm my plans. I really have looked into this and crunched the numbers and although what you say sounds good initially, when the numbers are put to it, it is very clear that your assessment is NOT reality.

Here's what I mean. First of all, One NEW long wheelbase Rubicon (assuming I could still get a new LWB 2 door) in bone stock form would cost $30,000! That does NOT include the cost of financing or any of the many necessary and expensive upgrades. Add those and you've got easily another $15,000 in this thing before you "own it". Since I can't get one of those which is preferrable because of it's lack of girth, I'd have to get a JK Rubicon. A two door is right at $31,000 (plus interest and upgrades) and a 4 door is more like $33,000 (plus). Granted these are pretty capable in stock form but I've got a mildly modded Liberty and I can go places they can NOT. And my Liberty will be mine in 14 months. How am I so confident? I've done it.

Consider this and check my numbers: the initial cost of my Jeep- $3,000. Add Frame and driveline improvements with the JK Rubicon locked and disc braked axles, brake system upgrades, Rocktrac Tcase, Auto tranny, lift kit w/ springs, shackles, bushings and the fabrication to make it all come together with skids as well as a 25% margin of error in cost estimate and I've got $6,200 more in it. Add Tires and Wheels- $1,200 more. Add miscellaneous bodywork/body armor with margin of error, another $3,700. Finish out the interior with new seats, 5 pt harnesses, dash panel w/ gauges, wiring, full rollcage and added margin of error another $3,500. The total parts/build/fab costs of around $14,500 plus the Jeep cost of $3,000 and I've only spent just over $17,000! No finance charges, all the upgrades are solid and reliable, and I own this sucker. Furthermore, my wife's Suburban stays nice, my Liberty stays nice, I've got a super sweet, extremely safe, capable, reliable, street legal CJ5 that I can take my family out in AND (big AND)... I still have $12 to $16,000 in my bank account. To me, it's a no brainer! Oh yeah, and if I do break it, I can load it back on the trailer, take it to the shop and drive my KJ to the office on Monday morn!

Even if I'm off my numbers by a long shot, I'm still good by comparison. Do you see my logic?

 

Thanks man. Your .02 considered, back to the weight thing though, the factory stock D44s, t-case and tranny will all work fine because they were all DESIGNED to propel a vehicle 3 times this one's size/weight.

The axles I'm buying are $1,400 each BRAND NEW, with lockers, 4.11 gears, disc brakes and a 36,000 mile warranty! I've looked and I don't know of any place that would sell a complete axle for less.

 

What does weight have to do with the setup I mentioned? The 4.3 is one of the best fuel injected V6's you can buy, not to mention being a common swap into the 5's, and weight is all about the same either way. The th350 is a smaller, lighter tranny, and they tend to hold up a whole lot better in 4wd applications from what I've seen than the 700r4. The 300 once you put the lomax kit in is a stronger t-case than what you're gonna have, and will cost about the same or less in the end. As for axles, you can find those in junkyards depending on your area, and when you put new gears, lockers, and chromo axles in them, and even add the disc brakes, they will be stronger than the stock one's your gonna have, for less $. This set up, if you figure in your $3k for the Jeep, would run you around $10k to $12k tops, and while your set up might be plenty strong enough, you would have a stronger setup with about the same weight. As for warranty if that's what you're wanting, you can buy the 4.3 as a crate engine, and some offer as much as 100k mile warranties, most all chromo axles are limited lifetime, lowmax gears are lifetime, and if you buy a new tranny it would have a warranty as well. Used axles from a junkyard, with all new warantied parts in them, are new axles.

Like I mentioned though, just giving a few pointers from some of the one's I've built or helped build. Your setup would work just fine for ya, but you would be paying more $ than what you would have to unless you already have this stuff laying around.

 

I don't see the point really.
No offense, but part of the fun of old Jeeps, and cars in general are the quirks and hiccups.
If I were your kids, I would have much more fun looking back at the time ___________ broke on the trail and you had to work together to get it back home. And if you trail ride with other people, you have no worries about not getting home.

Just my $.02, but Keep the Jeep as is, and fix what breaks, or wheel something newer.

 

What I don't understand is why you want to put a widetrack running gear under a narrowtrack vehicle. You can find a world of cheap used YJs and TJs. The TJ will basically be a bolt up and the YJ is easily modified to coilovers to give the same type of setup. Have you even considered the problems you are going to run into trying to fit a coil spring axle and all the components under a frame setup for a simple leaf spring suspension? You'll have so much stuff outboarded you'll be lucky if it's driveable much less safe. Coil springs and narrow vehicles are just asking for a rollover IMO. Length is another consideration. A backward tumble down a mountain is a very real possibility in a short wheelbase CJ especially w/ coils. I would want a minimum of 100" in a coil suspended vehicle.
Bottom line is this could be done way better, safer, and as cheap if not cheaper w/ a different model jeep. A CJ was never intended to be what you want and I really doubt the finished product will be anything like your vision.:v6::v6:

 

That's the only part he is keeping

 

One thing I'd take a very close look at is the length of the drivetrain you are talking about using. The 700r4 and and 241R transfer case are pretty long. Much too long for a CJ-5, especially an 81" CJ-5, unless you are planning on lengthening the wheel base quite a bit. I'd highly suggest getting out the tape measure and doing some very careful measurements before tearing apart your Jeep. If you plan on going on with this, let us know how it goes as we'd be really interested. Oh, yeah, if you decide to adapt the 700r4 to a 241R, 231, or Dana 300, Contact R&P at 503-557-8911. They manufacture an adapter and output shaft kit for this application that is only 1" thick and is machined steel. Last I saw it was the thinnest on the market...... Nickmil

 

*sighs*
I'd use any old Jeep that I've rebuilt over a new contraption/advance tech any day...
Thing is, if I break something, chances are, a stick or a quarter or duct tape will fix it, and not leave me stranded.
JMHO.

 

Wow guys. Alot of ya'll are on here during the day. Cool. I'll be sure to post "for sale" stuff in the Classified section.

Listen, as I said, I DO want ya'll's opinions. And just cause you think a certain way is right doesn't mean it can't be done a hundred other ways and still be right. As I've read along, I've got a few of things to clear up, just for the sake of the discussion.
1. I am NOT using a 700R4. Yes, that's what I said but I mean't a TH400. I never intended to have an OD tranny. A TH350 would certainly work too. I've wheeled a standard and it's no doubt enjoyable but an auto... nothing is smoother, safer and more precise... IMO.
2. I am NOT converting my CJ to coils!!! I am keeping the leaves and I am even keeping them UNDER the axles but I am considering longer ones, maybe like those from a YJ or XJ Cherokee (I think they are XJs) at least in the rear.
3. I AM strongly considering moving the front axle forward 3 or 4 inches. Actually I've thought of keeping original length leaf springs (but with lift) for the front so I could do this without adding but an inch or two to the front end. Once it's under the knife, I'll know if this is viable.

Ok, all things considered (and more to come, no doubt), look at this from my perspective. I am NOT a fabricator or builder. I do have skills with the mechanics of a vehicle and I do have some great ideas. We'll see how great in 9 months or so when it's done! I am taking my Jeep to the shop tomorrow with a check to get them started. I'm leaving the tub and taking the chassis to the pressure washer then to the suspension shop for measurements and a parts list. At that point comes the time for real decisions to be made. I will take pics as we go and let you know about the progress.

One more thing... Ya'll keep mentioning about me buying a later model Jeep... and that I should keep this one "real". I don't WANT a late model Jeep. I don't want the hassles that come with inspections, Oxy sensors, air bag sensors, dummy lights... payments!! These newer vehicles will almost drive FOR you! There ain't no fun there. Agreed? I considered building with older, heavier parts from an old Chevy truck in my very first post and you all made good points so I changed my plan. I'm just trying to make this Jeep perfect for me. I've been wheeling a long time and feel like I have a great plan. I'm going light, short, wide, low, powerful, durable and JEEP! That is a combination with which you just can't go wrong. Somebody give me an AMEN!

Keep it coming.

 

Well, I'm all for what you're doing, I even like most of the parts choices. However; I do have an issue with one thing you said...

Do you have pictures of said Liberty? I'd like to see a "mildly" built Liberty that can go places a stock Rubi can't go...I suppose the gas station