1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

V6 Crawl

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by CJ51973, Jun 17, 2023.

  1. Jun 17, 2023
    CJ51973

    CJ51973 Member

    Versailles, KY
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    195
    I searched around a bit and didn't see this discussed. I enjoy my 3:73s with the V6 on the road. I would like a little lower gear offroad. I have looked at the SM465 swap. This will more than likely need exhaust work along with modifying both drive shafts & others. I have also talked with Herm a little about a Teralow he does with the T14 but you have to add an overdrive which I don't need. What would have to happen to put a T90 in instead? I figure the input shaft would have to change, is this something that can be bought? Then do the Teralow which I have done a couple of. Anyway, not an emergency I am just bench building right now exploring options.
     
    Dwins1 and Stakebed like this.
  2. Jun 17, 2023
    Jw60

    Jw60 Cool school 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,821
    With the Buick your better off with a t18 than a sm465 due to the smaller hole on the bellhousing.
     
  3. Jun 17, 2023
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    7,179
    T90 1st gear isn't as low as a T14.
    Sounds like you want a 4 speed swap. It's a huge amount of work and $ but very doable.
    SM420, SM465, and T18 are the usual swap candidates. Each has been discussed at length on thus forum. Do a search and you'll have reading for days.
     
    Stakebed, vtxtasy and Sierra Bum like this.
  4. Jun 17, 2023
    Sierra Bum

    Sierra Bum Member

    The High Sierra
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    329
    It’s useful to think about what crawl ratio you want to get to…. Or how are you going to use this thing.

    ring & pinion -X- tranny gear -X- t-case gearing = Crawl Ratio.

    If you have the stock drivetrain, you are at: 3.73 X 3.1 X 2.46 = 28.4:1 …not very good.

    I think most would agree that rock crawling ratios begin around 70:1. And 60:1 is a very useful all around crawl ratio.

    The question is how you get there. Terra Low with your T14 would only get you to 36.4:1… a small, hardly noticeable improvement.

    A wide ratio T18 would get you to a 58:1 low gear: 3.73 X 6.32 X 2.46 = 57.99.

    Not sure why Herm is telling you that you need OD for Terra gears. But OD is also great for spitting gears if you end up with a deep crawl ratio.
     
    Stakebed likes this.
  5. Jun 17, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,652
    As one that has been through quite a bit of this a few years ago with my v6/T14/D18 combo....A couple things:
    1) as Doug above says, the T14 and T90 have essentially the same first gear, so no benefit to crawl ratio there.

    2) I run a T14 and tera low gears in mine, and that does significantly help with crawl. I also have 4.88 gears so that helps. Just to give you numbers (maybe you already did this), CR with your current setup is 3.1x2.46x3.73 = 28.4 (which is not particularly good). If you go tera low gears in the D18, that becomes 3.1x3.15x3.73 = 36.4. That is an improvement, but overall that is still not a lot of crawl - but it also depends on what type of wheeling you are doing, and also, the tire size matters as well. Before I added the tera low gears, I was at CR of 37, and that was okay for mild to moderate trails with 30-31 inch tires. Basically, adding the tera lows would be the equivalent of getting the optional 4.88s gears. Now as for Herms comment about needing and OD....Technically, you don't need an OD, but I assume he is getting at the difficulty in finding the correct tera low D18 drive gear that mates with the T14s unusual 10spline output shaft. There are some of them around somewhere, but you may have to scour the various forums and be patient - they certainly are not common. Because I have 4.88 gears, I run the OD so I can cruise at highway speeds, and yes, its probably easier (and more expensive) to use the OD that comes with the correct tera low and T14 10spline compatible planetary/barrel gear drive unit. And, yes, its probably hard to justify the cost of the OD with 3.73 gears unless you are really running a small tire.

    3) There is going to be a lot of discussion about doing a truck 4 speed swap to get the granny first gear for crawl - such as the sm465 you mention. I put an sm465 in my 58...so I've now gone that route as well. Other common options include the T18 and SM420. In theory, they are the BEST solution....you get great crawl, you get a stronger transmission, you don't need tera low gears (keep the D18 as is), and your highway cruise stays exactly the same with 1:1 final drive ratio. In your case, just getting something with a 6:1 granny gear would get your CR to 55 (actually, it would be higher as all 3 of the options listed have a granny low in the 6.3-7 range). BUT, there is nothing 'bolt' in about the swap no matter what transmission you use. At the time I was working on this, I was not comfortable doing all the modifications needed, so I went tera low....it was something I could do at the time, it wasn't an overwhelming project, and it was more in my price point (as I didn't need a new OD - but I did have to buy the tera low compatible overdrive barrel gear to go with the actual tera low gears.

    As you can see....the crawl ratio challenges of jeeps with 3.73 gears is not a trivially simple solution. My cost estimates might be a bit off these days as stuff is probably more expensive than I remember, but TLs will probably cost you $1500 (adding in the OD), you will get a small to modest gain in CR, but have no other changes needed in terms of driveline, cross-member etc. It can be done in a couple weeks by a relatively inexperienced person - it will basically be a rebuild of the D18 and replace the gears while in there, and you'll get new seals and bearings etc, and bolt it all back together. The 4 speed swap is going to be at least $2000 given you will probably need an adapter of some sort (either on the front or back end), cross-member and floorpan work, clutch work, and driveshaft changes at a minimum. The end result will be awesome, but its going to take months unless you've done this stuff before. Having gone through this myself, only you can decide what the best plan is (including just leaving well enough along and enjoying driving it as is), and yet, its really hard if you are not experienced or can't drive other people's examples to feel the differences, to know what is the best plan of attack. Just my useless 2 cents, but unless you can find the tera low drive gear and skip the expense of the OD, I'd probably just drive it as is until you know you want to go all out and swap the transmission. good luck....
     
    Dwins1, Stakebed, Desertdog48 and 2 others like this.
  6. Jun 17, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,652
    the 26 tooth, 10spline drive gear for the 18 is VERY hard to find....
    I understand this is pretty standard numbers in the industry, but even for all the wheeling I do, I've still yet to get rid of my T14 for a 4speed and have just enough CR with with 33s to do what I need. its not ideal, but depending on the OPs usage (and my personal experience), there is a lot of pressure here to go 4speed, when in some cases, its not really necessary - just nicer to have - and also depends on skills and budget. In the case of the OP, if CR in the 30s is enough (plenty good for most easy and moderate trails, especially with smaller tires), it certainly is the easiest. If I had tried to do a T18 swap years ago instead of the TLs, I'd probably still have an unfinished jeep. Instead, I have a jeep that is not ideal, but its just good enough and has been driven A LOT over the last 10 years.
     
    Dwins1, Stakebed, Tralehead and 3 others like this.
  7. Jun 17, 2023
    dnb71R2

    dnb71R2 SuperDave 2023 Sponsor

    Grand Mesa, CO
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,362
    I remember being in the same decision predicament!
    I'm just going to give a big vote to 4:88 gears and the Ford T18...that's what I have and love it. The granny gear is an incredible upgrade!!! You won't even need low range for many little trail things.
    The tera-low kit is much more cost, so I passed.
    I don't do much highway cruising so skipped the OD completely.
    Keep it simple. Get plenty of input and opinions. Herm is only one input.
    Keep researching...the right answer for YOU will surface. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2023
    Dwins1, Stakebed, vtxtasy and 2 others like this.
  8. Jun 17, 2023
    Sierra Bum

    Sierra Bum Member

    The High Sierra
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    329
    Yeah Fino, that’s a practical way to look at it. The 4 speed swaps certainly are a lot of work… each with their own challenges.
     
    Dwins1, Stakebed and FinoCJ like this.
  9. Jun 17, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,652
    I agree the final number is small, but disagree that its not noticeable....That is a 20% improvement - definitely noticeable. When I went from 37 to almost 48, it was VERY noticeable.
     
    Dwins1 likes this.
  10. Jun 17, 2023
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    7,179
    My 2 cents...I'd keep the 3 speed, swap to 4.88 gears with an overdrive. I ran mine this way for 20+ years and (almost) always got where I wanted to go. Last year I swapped in a T18 4 speed and I hate it, it's been nothing but a giant headache and it's not nearly as enjoyable to drive. The low gear is great for difficult obstacles but other than that I wish I'd kept my T90.
    http://www.earlycj5.com/xf_cj5/index.php?threads/152977/
     
    Dwins1 and melvinm like this.
  11. Jun 17, 2023
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Maryland
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,203
    Learn to feel and come to love the hate..
     
    Dwins1 likes this.
  12. Jun 17, 2023
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    7,179
    :lol:
     
  13. Jun 17, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,514
    And then there are Jeff Petrowich's Super X98 low range gear set (5.07:1). Those do require several modifications of the D18 case.
    [​IMG]

    I'm a lot like Fino. Piloted my CJ 5 for a lot of years with the stock 4.88's/ T86AA/OD. I don't recall once not getting to where I wanted to be. Yup, maybe pulled cable a few more times but I was never embarrassed about that-perhaps because in my case, there was rarely an audience.

    The TeraLows absolutely do make a significant difference. One should note that the 26 tooth main drive gear for the TeraLows is NOT the same as the 26 tooth Dana gear for the 2.43:1 gear set. Dana 26 tooth gear top, TL version bottom.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Jun 18, 2023
    Jeepenstein

    Jeepenstein Me like Jeep.. 2024 Sponsor

    North Central FL
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,156
    I went 4.27 axle and SM-420 with a 34" tire and I feel I'm in the sweet spot.
     
    Dwins1 and vtxtasy like this.
  15. Jun 18, 2023
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,421
    just for every day driving
    my T 18 reverse . is way too low :whistle:
     
    vtxtasy likes this.
  16. Jun 18, 2023
    CJ51973

    CJ51973 Member

    Versailles, KY
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    195
    That was a lot of responses, thanks for that. If I can get mid 30s I would be happy. I am on 235-70R15s and don't plan to go bigger as I have said in other posts. The Teralow would be perfect except for the input gear that doesn't exist. I found this out the hard way 22 years ago on my 73. I did the t'case and then went to switch gears, nope. Ended up installing a T15 and had to do drive shafts. I have a line on an SM420 (what I meant to say in the original post) but it will change both drive shafts, probably my exhaust and who knows whatelse d
     
    Dwins1 and Stakebed like this.
  17. Jun 18, 2023
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    York, PA
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,511
    I don't have my T18 installed yet but I have driven pickups with the T18. The shift from 2nd to third is big jump. Is that one of the dislikes, Doug?
     
    vtxtasy and Brislin06 like this.
  18. Jun 18, 2023
    WildCJ5

    WildCJ5 Member

    California
    Joined:
    May 29, 2023
    Messages:
    118
    I don’t want to highjack but I am in the same boat. Dauntless/t14/d20/3:73. Engine, trans and tcase out of a commando. Is there a low range kit made for this tcase?
     
    Stakebed likes this.
  19. Jun 18, 2023
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,652
    There is/was a D20 a tera low kit - assume herm is carrying that as well now....you may have the same challenge with the drive gear. T14 has the rare 10 spine.
     
    Dwins1, Stakebed and WildCJ5 like this.
  20. Jun 18, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    5,719
    The T-18 gearing is almost identical to the T-14 but with a granny gear you don't use on the street (and a really low reverse). It's interesting Doug doesn't like his. I love the T-18 in my '71. It shifts buttery smooth and works great.

    T-14 gearing:
    • 1st: 3.10:1
    • 2nd: 1.61:1
    • 3rd: 1:1
    • R: 3.10
    T-18 gearing:
    • Low: 6.32:1
    • 1st: 3.09:1
    • 2nd: 1.69:1
    • 3rd: 1:1
    • R: 7.44
     
    vtxtasy, Twin2, dnb71R2 and 1 other person like this.
New Posts