Dauntless V6 Engine Plant

Anyone know which engine plant the Dauntless V6 was built in the short period Jeep used them? As far as I know, it was still built by GM the entire time, though Kaiser Jeep had exclusive rights to it from '67 on.

 

Wikipedia says Kaiser bought the tooling, which implies they were built in Toledo.

This has always been my understanding, that Kaiser bought the means to make these engines, and any rights to them.

 

Yes, that is the conventional wisdom but it's not backed up by any primary documentation from KJ that I have seen (and I don't regard Wiki as a primary or necessarily reliable source of Jeep info). Plus, that V6 was still available in Buicks for '67 so they were concurrent in Jeeps thru that time. I have seen primary-source paperwork that sheds some light on this but I don't have copies and have only my recollection... which is hazy. It could be that production was by GM part of the time then reverted to KJ or ???

 

Owning the tooling really means nothing, these could have been made by any foundry and machine company.

 

I agree with Tim on Toledo...........Here is a pretty good article that follows the Buick V6 around for almost 5 decades , that ends up with the original tooling re-installed back in the Buick Flint engine plant from where it was born.........interesting article.

The Strange Tale of the Buick Special, Buick-Rover V8, and 3800 V6 - Ate Up With Motor

 

Just some findings-- random sources-- believe what you will -- see #8 first re: original post

1.) In 1965, Kaiser bought the casting rights to the Buick 225 cu in (3.7 L) V6 Dauntless.

2.) Marine use--Evinrude and OMC offering for 1966--the four-stroke, Buick-designed/Kaiser-built "Dauntless" Jeep, 150 hp - 225 CID - V6.

3.) The Novak Guide to The Buick 90 Degree V6 Engine

4.) ...purchased the rights from GM in 1965--the first Jeeps with the Dauntless V6 were 1966 model year. Production ran from 1966-1971, when AMC redesigned for the '72 model year and beyond and went with their own engines.

5.) re: Jeep production... "I've been told that during this time, the replacement parts were being supplied back to GM by Jeep Corporation. In 1970, AMC bought out Jeep, and the '71 model year was the last to use the V6."

6.) The V6 tooling was sold to Kaiser-Jeep and they were introduced as the "Dauntless V6" into the Jeep CJ5, CJ6 & C101 for the 1966 model year with warm customer reception. The 225 Buick V6 was offered as an option over 4 cylinder engine in 1966-1971 CJ5 and CJ6. Jeep used a heavier flywheel for increased torque and to dampen the vibrations stemming from the odd-fire design.

7.) "Buick used the Fireball name on both the 198 and 225 v6's, but Jeep 225's were dubbed DAUNTLESS."

#8.) The Dauntless V6 was built in the Stickney Avenue JEEP plant in Toledo Ohio.

9.) Buick V6 engine | iCloud eBook Library - eBooks | Read eBooks online

10.) re: the return of the V6 to Buick--GM wanted AMC to put the engine back into production. However, AMC's cost per unit was deemed as too high. Instead of buying completed engines, GM made an offer to buy back the tooling and manufacturing line from AMC in April, 1974. With production back within GM, Buick re-introduced the V6 that fall in certain 1975 models - a move made possible by the fact that foundations for the old V6 machinery were still intact at Buick's engine assembly plant in Flint, Michigan, so it was easy to put the old tooling back in place and begin production at least two years ahead of the normal schedule that would have been required to create new tooling.

 

Thanks much for the effort but I can Google too ( : < ). I'm looking for a primary source for the info. A secondary source may be just parroting "conventional wisdom" that could be correct or incorrect. What I am hoping to find is a clue to primary source from KJ or AMCJ that indicates the engines were being produced in Toledo. Or not. There are some dialed in folks here that I hope may have seen something that could give me a clue. Don't really care what ithe answer is. I just want to relate information I know is correct.

It's odd that the Jeep engines would have the same casting numbers as the GM engines. It's possible the castings still came from GM but the machining and assembly was done at KJ. Jeep outsourced a lot of foundry work so what's the diff if the Defiance, Ohio, GM foundry cast heads, blocks and cranks vs some other foundry? Or their own.

 

Sometimes to take "The Dauntless V6 was built in the Stickney Avenue JEEP plant in Toledo Ohio." and perhaps other bits such as #10 above, and then phrasing specific questions can lead to the desired "primary source" validation. Didn't know how much info. you had.

 

Evidently the Dauntless was both purchased from Buick in 1966 and 1967 and manufactured from the original tooling in Toledo thereafter.

 

I have some documentation of this and will be getting more. Here are some of the facts as presented on a KJC Assets Study document dated May 19, 1969, probably done in preparation for the sale to AMC.

-KJC purchased a licensing agreement from Buick Motors enacted on November 26, 1966 at a cost of $1,100,000. The same document indicates the acquisition cost was $6,895,180 (which may include the $1.1 mil from the license and the tooling- it isn't clear). This would seem to confirm the idea that GM was building the engines in '66 and probably '67 too, since the 225 was still offered in Buicks that year (the last).

-a document that has an organization chart of the V6 engine line that was most likely at Stickney. There is no place on that chart that mentions a foundry and the Wilson Foundry was closed by that time, so I wonder if Defiance was casting the V6 parts. If not them, who? Makes sense for GM to do it since they would have all the plans and master molds. I have unconfirmed info (from a retired employee there... I live nearby the Defiance GM Foundry) that Defiance cast the 225 blocks for Buick. I will follow up on that but does anyone have an idea who was casting for Jeep at the time?

-I won't offer any details right now because the totality of it is unclear, but there may be some "interesting" conflicts that occurred over the tooling.

As to why AMC dropped the V6, that was purely a financial/efficiency decision. Why pay licensing fees and to operate a line at Toledo for a relatively small number of engines. It made more sense to consolidate Jeeps to AMC engines and let Kenosha built power plants, keeping that line running at 100 percent. Overall, I think the AMC engines were a better choice anyway. The odd fire 225 was rough as a cob vs a 232 or 258. Plus, by scrapping the long-in-the-tooth F134, they could offer a six as the base engine.

 

I haven't searched for this yet, but many foundries have unique marks cast in the block/head/part, along with dates and shift codes. It would be interesting to compare the '66 and '67 Dauntless parts with those of '69 and '70 to see if the foundry marks are different.
-Donny

 

I really don't see the sense of knowing why AMC did this or that . at least it still looked like a Jeep can't really say the new jeeps with those car interiors
look like a jeep . yea I know safety first . going back to my corner now