Help with "Bubba Brakes"

So during my rebuild of my 56 CJ-5, I take off front wheel to start working on brakes. As you can see in pics, I thought someone has put on 11 in brakes. But, what I find is the drums are placed behind the hub, using the studs pounded through to hold the drum to the backside of the hub. The drum is rubbing on the backing plate and the hole in the center is too small to fit over the hub the way it should be . As you can see in the last pic, I have all the parts for 9 in brakes on my donor frame. My question is, would I be better off to change back to the old 9in and throw out this "Bubba Fix"? I will be running a Dauntless V-6, so the 11in brakes would have been nice but I don't see any way to fix this, and I have no idea what these brakes came off of to buy new shoes nor what to do about drum rubbing on backing plate. I'll wait to see what you good folks say!! Thanks. Oh there are the same drums on the rear too, so thinking they will need changed out to? Bruce[/URL][/IMG][/URL][/IMG][/URL][/IMG][/URL][/IMG][/URL][/IMG][/URL][/IMG][/URL][/IMG][/URL][/IMG]

 

Candidate for the disc brake MOD...

 

I dont pretend to know what you have there. could be jeep stuff, maybe not. I do know that you really don't want the 9" brakes though. If I were you, I would try and make the 11"drums work or go disk. When you have to stop, its no joke. I know that the 11" drums are every bit as good as disks except when they get wet. I sourced all my parts myself for my disk brake setup because I could not find an 11" backer plate that was cheaper than a disk setup at the time. Your results may vary. Some of the guys here have had good luck with the R&P kits. I would throw away the 9" brake stuff.

 

From what I have found looking on line, these maybe from a 2 wheel drive wagon. They were saying on one web site they are meant to be pressed on back on hub. I'm going to look into what the depth of 11 in drums made for CJs would be. All the disc set-ups I have looked at are around $600.00, this is not a DD, more of a sunny day driver. My M38A1 has 9in on it, and with all new drums and shoes it stops just fine, just have to stay up with adjusting them. I may try the 9in for now and see how they work, its going to be awhile till this thing is done and on the road, so in the mean time I will keep looking for either disc or drums for these backing plates. I also see that most of the V6s had 10" do these work better then the 9in? Thanks, Bruce

 

The 10" drums work better than the 9" but are still marginal for a v6 CJ IMO. Also parts for them are expensive and can be difficult to find.
Go 11" or disc.

 

I see that disc from an S-10 can be used. I have a S-10 4x4, I just tried an old rotor and it fits spindle. Does anyone know what is used to mount caliper? And do you use S-10 calipers? I see in the forums it says there is a good write-up, but it will not come-up anymore. Also I see the rotor is the same dia of the 11in drum, so with the caliper mounted will I still be able to run my stock 16 in rims?

 

GM stuff Don't know about the S-10 stuff. I think 16"rims work with this.
Gm caliper mounting plate from blazer or similar from 70's to mid 80s.
caliper
http://www.rockauto.com/?wiki=/1979 CHEVROLET K10 PICKUP 5.7L 350cid V8_Caliper_1297111_1704
get organic pads. i have used both organic and semi metallic and have not noticed a difference. other guys swear by organics.
Jeep disk rotor
http://www.rockauto.com/?wiki=/1977 JEEP CJ5 5.0L 304cid V8_Rotor_1309496_1896

heres a 5% off for rock auto. 2949763020026087 might find it cheaper somewhere else even with the discount though, so do a search on part numbers.
lug nuts
http://www.rockauto.com/?wiki=/1969 BUICK LESABRE 5.7L 350cid V8_Lug Nut_1017841_7676

Get a new dual master from a 1970 cj5 and flex brake lines for the calipers.

 

Do the brakes work now? How badly do the drums rub on the backing plates? Have you measured the drums to see if they can be turned? If the drums are under 60-thou oversized, they can be turned. They do not have to come off of the hub to be turned.

Is there a utility wagon forum out there? There's the Willystech list, but it looks like it still has an email server. Those clip-like retainer springs are characteristic of something ... but I don't remember where I saw them. The utility truck/wagon used 11" manual adjusting brakes, that will work on the CJs. The Bendix brakes are a lot more popular though, and are self-adjusting.

Do a little research about the 11" brakes - there are lots of vehicles that used the 11" Bendix brakes, including the F100 Ford pickups. Adapting 11" brakes goes way, way back, to the 50s when they used 11" Mercury brakes. I gather you can use the F100 backing plates if you make an easy adapter (a spacer?) - supposedly Novak used to sell instructions or plans for adapting the Ford brakes to CJ hubs. You could call and ask them about that.

With a little ingenuity and research/thinking I believe you can make something that will work fine for short money. Or you can skip the drums entirely, and do the junkyard disk brakes. Lots of discussion of that on the net.

And yes, I'd agree - skip the 9" brakes.

 

http://www.earlycj5.net/forums/showthread.php?112809-R-amp-P-s-Disk-brake-conversion-S10-based

This is my little write up on putting in R&P's S10 disk brake kit. The caliper bracket is proprietary to them. Warn used to make a caliper bracket but they stopped. Moses Ludel also put brakes on similar to this in his book . So far I have only driven the jeep a few miles with the new brakes but they work better than the 10" drums. I also put in a proportional valve and plan on tweaking the brakes this weekend.

I still have the frame mounted pedals but I am keeping an eye open for a set of swinging pedals simply because the mechanics of the frame mounted pedals are a PITA to work on and keep mechanically sound.

Keep in mind R&P says 33 inch tires maximum with the s10 brakes.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0837610370/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1428146569&sr=8-2&keywords=moses+ludel&pi=AC_SY200_QL40&dpPl=1&dpID=51EK%2BUX5dzL&ref=plSrch

 

Another possibility, if you cannot reuse the drums, is to remove the studs and drums from the hubs and inspect the hubs for reuse. Then using your original or replacement hubs, put a hub on the spindle and get a replacement brake drum for a 1972 CJ-5, and put it over the hub. The '72 drums are not finned, and just sit over the (new) wheel studs on the front surface of the hub. The backing plates should now be too far inward from the drums, and you should be able to make spacers to move the backing plates out from the knuckles and align properly with the new drums.

 

I'm looking at all the posts and trying to decide what to do. To answer your question timgr, I only drove this jeep off the trailer and in the garage and the brakes didn't work very well, master cylinder that was cobbled on frame was moving when you pushed pedal. So first thing I did was removed that and replaced it with a brand new single master cylinder, so now if I change breaks this may have been a waste of money. Also the drums are rubbing the the drum because back of spindle is not machined nor is the front of drum, so it has .300 of runout, which would cause one hell of a vibration, let alone most likely destroy the wheel bearings and other parts. My idea for this jeep is to take back to original as much as possible. It will only be driven on nice days, to and from shows, Sunday afternoon rides, so with this in mind I'm not sure what route I will go. My M38a1 has the 9in on so if I go that route and they don't work ok, I would at least have more spare parts for it. To move them over I would only need new wheel cylinders and shoes. The drums are rusted on the outside but look brand new inside. The other possibility is to try the 72 CJ-5 drums you spoke about to see where they fit. I let everyone know what I come up with. Thanks for all the ideas, Bruce

 

Check the prices on parts for the 9" brakes ... they are pretty expensive as I recall. Look on the Walck's page. Certainly one of the virtues of the 11" bendix brakes has been their low, low parts prices, but according to 47v6 the prices for his disk conversion beat what he could get the 11" brakes for. From your description, I would think about throwing away the hubs and drums from the '56 and use the hubs from the M38A1 (assuming that's what's pictured above.) Have you taken the 9" brakes apart yet? Your 11" backing plates and cylinders might be ok if you make a spacer ring to go between the backing plate and the knuckle. The shoes are 2" wide, right?

 

If they are old wagon 11" 2WD aren't they 1.75 wide?

 

timgr, yes I have went over everything, the 11 in are 1.75 wide, the 9in are off of the donor frame which was a 65 CJ-5 with Dauntless from factory. I was checking prices and found that thru rock-auto I can get either 1.75 or 2in in the 9in, both will fit, and since they are the same that was run on the older Scouts the price is not bad. Like $28.00 per axle, may check at local auto parts store. Everything on them looks good, but I'm going to replace wheel cylinders and of course new shoes. The one thing that got me was when I laid the old 9in shoes on top of the 11in ones, they both have the same length of pad. I cleaned up backing plate, drum and hub, repacked bearing and installed it without shoes yet, but everything fits as it should. Only thing that will be different from stock is since backing plates will take both 1.75 or 2in you can't fit "S" lines in so I will have to run the rubber lines. So as far as cost this is the cheaper way to go, because the best price I could find for the later Jeep 11in drums was $75 apiece, and then I wasn't sure they would even work. So I'm going with the 9in by 2 shoes. This is what I found on line,
1961-70 IHC Scout - Front & Rear
1953-64 Jeep CJ3B, CJB5, CJ6B Military Jeep with 9"x2" brakes - Front & Rear
1962-73 Jeep CJ3B, CJ5, CJ6 with 4WD F-4 engine with 9"x2" brakes (except diesel) - Front
Control #: BD 2300
Drum Inside Diameter: 9 inches
Fits Shoe Widths Of: 1 3/4 and 2 inches
Bolt Pattern: 5 x 5.5"
Also found if I need, new 9in drums on ebay no.191551607956 at $ 49.00 apiece. Bruce

 

Glenn, You are correct, at my age (54), I have drove my fair share of vehicles with drum brakes. Learned many years ago how to double clutch to down shift to use motor in braking situations if needed. And in the military manual for the M38A1 it tells how to set brakes with feeler gauge for max. braking. I have done this and can say that at 45 mph with 700-16 NDCC tires, all 4 wheels will lock up on pavement. So yes I think I will be fine with the 9in brakes. And like I said if I feel they are not doing their job at that time I will replace with disc. Bruce

 

Just buy Ford Bronco 11"x2" brakes and be done with it. I found backing plates at Bronco Graveyard. They bolt right on. All the other parts (shoes, hardware, drums) I got from Rockauto. I did have to have the center hole in the drums machined out to fit over the hub though. A local shop did it for $40. I have 11"s on all 4 corners of my Jeep and it'll throw you through the windshield..