Timing, firing help please....

Ok, I made a diagrham of the ignition curcuit with the correct color wires etc. I actually pulled the harness, checked all wires and replaced some connectors, etc. I check continuity and everything well and replaced the harness.

I did a compression test and replaced, gapped and torqued the plugs;

Gap: 0.035

1-148
3-150
5-155
2-155
4-155
6-150

Added new ground and Pos. wires/connectors
New points, rotor button, plug wires and coil.
No distributor cap to be found yet, used the old one.

Got timing light, vacume gauge, meter and engine analyser all hooked up and ready to fine tune.

It cranked up and ran at about 1800 RPM, no good though.

Set dwell: 31

Could not get the engine down to idle to check timing. It ran rough and smoked pretty bad. After all said and done I had no spark on the number 6 cylinder. I was using the timing light to verify sparking. Checked the other cylinders and was getting fire but seemed sparatic at best. I assumed distributor so far.

The next morning I replaced the points, coil, and rotor button with the old. Still not firing properly. I could not get spark on number 1 and spark on other cylinders seemed sparatic still. Ran at times at high RPM but would not idle and at times would not crank.

With timing light on spark wire to coil the blink seems sparatic. It does not pulse consistent. Same thing on the plug wires themselves. light.....light....................light.light.light.........light...light.......light.
This doesn't seem right.

With it running at a high rpm, and when I get firing on number one I can adjust my timing light and see the timing mark but it is real irratic. Lighting in one spot a couple of revs, then moving way up, then back down, etc.

So...sorry this is so long. I am thinking distributor cap. If I am getting spark through the coil wire but not to a pulg wire it has to be something like that right?

I am not sure how the coil wire should light-up on the timing light. I am assuming it should be fast and consistant, period.

I acts like a condensor bad but I replaced it with the old one and it doesn't change the problem.

I tried a different ballast res. also, no change.

12v to coil

Continuity from (-)coil to points

I do not have a manual but I know there are some tests I can run with my meter to check primary/secondary curcuit, etc.

Any ideas, or any tests you know of I can run with my meter or timing light?

 

This has happened to me several times. One thing that sometimes helps is to make sure plugs are scrupulously clean. (I run mine thru the bead blaster). While I have the plugs all out, I will crank over the engine several seconds to maybe blow out any excess gas or crud.
Voltage to coil should be around 6-7 volts after it has passed thru ballast resistor. Bypass, switch, whatever inside the starter solenoid kicks it up to 12+ volts during cranking. 12 volts on points all the time will probably fry them in short order.
Put a vacuum gauge on it to get some indication of leaks and/or early or late timing. My V-6 would not run on X? degrees BTDC (with Prestolite distributor) like the book said. Don't know if something has moved , but finally set it by driving down the road, adjust timing, drive down the road, adjust timing until I just got beyond the valve clatter under hard acceleration.

 

Case 931, my Haynes book said that with a Prestolite distributor, the timing should be set @ 0 DBTDC. With a Delco, it was 5 DBTDC.

 

My timing really isn't the issue I don't think. I can't get consistant fire to check timing. I have something wrong in the ignition curcuit.


How about this question: If I have the timing light hooked on the coil to distributor top plug shouldn't I be seeing quick consistant light? I am getting irractic non- cyclical lighting

I would think even if the timing is off. The light would show consistant pulsing. I am getting irratic if any pulsing on the plug wires.

 

Nelson, are you sure your light is good?
Maybe you could hook it up to another vehicle and test it.

 

John, I did check my light last night. It seems fine.

I got a Delco ditributor cap and it didn't fit

The plate inside the distributor (one that the points mount to) has Delco stamped on it. However, the Delco ditributor will not fit?

I am really at a loss now :evil:

I replaced the old cap and still am not getting proper fire, in fact no fire on #1. I can't even get the motor to fire at all anymore.

I have checked volts to coil, check the ballast, checked for resistance throughout the ignition wiring curcuit.

At one point I removed and grounded #1 I had some fire but it was more yellow in appearance which indicates to me weak ignition. I am wondering if my light is not able to pick-up a weak fire. I have continuity from the coil primary to coil secondary, from the coil tower to the distributor, from the coil to the points. I have check ground from the distributor to the motor, and motor to the battery.

Although I removed, checked and replaced the ignition curcuit wiring harness nothing has changed. I niether added nor removed any wires in the curcuit. I checked continuity on all wires.

Any other tests you guys can think of?

 

Did you try cranking it with the dwell meter on it? It should have given you a reading close to 30 degrees if the points are set right. Weak spark can come from the points misadjusted.

Just a thought.

 

Dwell set at 30-31 and no Variance at different RPMs (when running).

 

Assuming you have a ballast resistor, what voltage is at the + side of the coil? Should be around 9 volts.

Have you tried running a jumper wire from the + side of the battery to the + side of the coil and trying to start it? This would give 12 volts to the coil for a hotter spark for starting. I would suggest taking the wires off the + side of the coil and only having the jumper on it, on the pretense the ignition wiring/switch is not correct. Also, if there are multiple wires on the - side of the coil, such as a noise suppressor or a tach, disconnect these wires so only the distributor is connected to the post.

Hope this helps.

 

+ side coil 8.5-9v

Tried the Jumper to the coil, no change.


Keep um coming Barry :?

 

OK. Did you take out the dist when you were tuning it?

Is it possible that you shorted the wire from the - post on the coil to ground? This could be possible when you replaced the points. The wire might be pinched in the dist housing. If you use an ohm meter with no voltage to the coil, can you see it bounce when connected to the - post on the coil and the other side to ground and you close and open the points?

I'm trying.
:?

 

I check continuity there but did not check ohms. I thought this and examined the wire but I will review it again. I didn't think to check ohms here so I will.

I have found the correct dist. cap will put it all together again today and try again.

I am thinking somehow the plugs (all) could have gotten fouled and not allowing ground, thus spark. I will remove them all again, double check plug wire connections, check continuity on everything again, set dwell again, check voltage, replace coil, points, condensor, button, cap and fire it off. Its gonna work today I feel it 8)

Thanks mucho Barry.

 

Sounds like a possible condensor problem to me.

 

Have you made sure your timing chain didn't jump a tooth?

 

I would agree with the condensor theory, except that he has tried two. That's why I went for the grounded wire. I wonder? Is the condensor connected to the correct location on the points?????

 

Not a mechanic here, but I do remember when I took old Nixon's engine out, my nephew told me it's very important to remember where the number 1 was at on the distributor cap. He said that if you remove the distributor, and if the gear on the bottom of the distributor is spun, and it doesn't go back in exactly where it came off, that it will cause a horrible problem. He told me a story about a friend who removed the distributor during a rebuilld. He looked down at that gear and was so amazed by it's function, that he couldn't resist just spinning away at it. When he put it back in just anywhere it would fit, and then spun the engine over for the initial cranking, it backfired through the carb and caught on fire.

My mechanic brother did not see this as a problem, but it wasn't because it wasn't necessary, he just said he knew how to get it right back in the correct spot without actually marking the number 1 or the gears. Actually, he got it close the first time, and had to pull it back out and spin the gear a little bit. I'm thinking only one gear tooth adjustment.

I don't know anything about mechanics, but I thought I'd throw that in there to see if a real mechanic, may decifer it and translate it in gear head lingo.

 

Good ideas guys

Condensor: I am familair with problems with these. Typically a condesor will not effect cranking. Hard cranking and shut off during normal operation of just a few minutes/seconds the condensor is usually suspect. Unless the points have been burned due to a bad condensor you will almost always get firing. I have used several including the old one I took out and no change. two of the three I have are a complete unit point/condensor. If seperate there is only one place to hook up the condensor. That place being the same place as the secondary lead.


Timing gear/chain: I don't think this is the cause. Even severe out of time will produce some ignition as some point during the crank cycle. I have read though that this V6 is pretty perculiar so I am not ruling that out. However, a light on #1(for example) is going to blink cyclically regardless.

You guys are all on the right track though. I have located the correct dist. cap. I am going to put everything back together, double check grounds, clean plugs, check continuity, check dwell, etc, etc. and fire it up. This time it will work......I hope.

Thanks again for all the replies...its very frustrating.

 

I'd be willing to be that this is one of those simple things that will make you slap your forehead when you figure it out. Kinda like my new alternator when all I had to do was reroute the wire to the starter in lieu of the battery. Let us know. I'm sure someone will need the final solution somewhere along the way.

 

CJ6: My CJ service manual warns about plug wires being routed too close to each other, for they can pick up voltage from each other and turns and oddfire into an eccentric-fire. It recommends spacing them apart, like 2,6,4 along the valve cover side rather than running them 2,4,6 close together. Maybe in your troubleshooting phase, find a way to geographically separate the wires from each other altogether and see if it helps. Voltage could also jump to the valve cover to ground, I suppose. HTH!
-alan
_____
Disclaimer: I don't know!

 

Thanks Hippo I have heard that before. I will do as you said though with the 264 set up.


Its running............

Ok, put everything back together with the right, new distrib. cap a little starting fluid and vuala. I have never had a distributor cap cause a problem without noticable cracks but.... I will have to say that is the only thing different last night.

I have no dwell varience....good

I have about 20inhg of vacume with no fluctuations...good

I was able to get the RPM down to 1000....ok

Timing....well...... right now it appears to be running at about 60deg AFTD.....not good.

I cannot turn the distributor counterclockwise to move the mark to 0-5deg cause the motor starts running rough. I have to turn it clockwise and move the mark on around to 0-5deg. However, the vacume advance module hits the intake and will not turn on around. I am thinking of moving the wires on the cap around 1 position which will give me enough movement in the mark to then be able to fine tune it.

I find this odd though...it seems to run ok where it is...just not fine tuned......quite odd. I also find it odd with it currently running I can move the distributor cap around alot. Basically #1 at 10:00 I can move it around to 12:00 with little change in the RPM. Based on where the timing mark is and where it should be I need #1 to be at about 3:00....this is contrary to where it should be which is around 10:00. (looking at it from the fenderwell). Thats why I want to move the wires around one position....whatch think?

Getting the idle down to 750 may move the mark some but very little.....so hmmmmm

Does the vacume reading look right to you guys. I am happy not to see any fluctuations. All in all I am pleased so far now I just need to fine tune it and we will be off and running....


Thanks for all of the help and troubleshooting....man I love jeeps and jeepers.