Spring/Shackle Questions or Opinions

Ok, so one of the PO's on my Jeep added what I've determined to be a Rough Country Lift to my CJ, near as I can tell, and I'm not sure, it's either 2.5" or 4" of lift (I'd actually really like to figure this out, but I've no stock Jeep here to measure against....), probably the 4", if you pinned me down and made me guess.

Now, this thing rides like a brick on a roller skate. I'm serious. Having operated plenty of unsprung rigs over the years (Front End Loaders, Muckers, UHT's, Mine Buggies, Skid Steers, etc) I've got a pretty good idea of what it feels like when the sidewalls of the tires are all the suspension you've got, and this thing honestly feels suspiciously like that.

No, I'm not expecting a Cadillac Ride. But I would figure it would be a little better than it is. Following this logic, when I was playing around with caster shims to get it to not wander so much, I went ahead and pulled the third leaf from the bottom in the front Spring Pack. I'm not sure if it's any better, or I'm just optimistically feeling something that isn't there, but it *seems* to be a little better.

Anyway, the shackles on my CJ have always basically sat close to 90 degrees at ride height, since I bought it. And I don't think that's quite right, so I grabbed my magnetic angle finder, and tossed it on the Shackle to grab some pics for you guys that might have more experience with these suspensions. I don't have any pics with the spring compressed, basically because I don't have a whole bunch of weight around here, and even with 300lbs of me jumping up and down on the winch plate, and the girlfriend watching, she says it barely moves.....

So here's the pictures. Starting with the Drivers Front. First picture is just sitting on the ground, the second is jacked up so it's at full "droop"





And the Passenger Rear, Same deal.





My shackles are roughly 3-3/4" from Bolt Center to Bolt Center.

So I guess my big questions are:
A) Are my shackle angles *good*, or even *safe*? Because hovering there around 90 degrees just doesn't seem right to me.
B) Should I be using a different length shackle, and would it make any difference in the ride?
C) Are my springs just *that* stiff, and nothing is going to make it ride any different without just scrapping it, biting the bullet, and going to BDS or Holbrook or somebody for a better setup?


Thanks for your opinions and advice.

 

I've had a number of Jeep lift springs over the years, and by far the best one I've ever had is the BDS suspension that I have on my CJ6 now. It rides great, has teflon between all the leaves, military wrap on the leaves, and has a great warranty. I'd recommend them to anyone. Probably a custom spring shop can do an even better job, but for the money, I wouldn't fault the BDS spring at all. The old type lift springs were so stiff it was crazy, which is probably what is going on with yours. Not much you can do with them except change them out. Don't get crazy with shackle length, remember that any length you add to them is added leverage on the shackle mounts and frame mounting points. Make sure it is just long enough to not flip back against the frame and lock there, and be just long enough to not bind up the spring at full compression. Anything longer would be just more leverage against your Jeep.

 

Quick use of the search function found the answer I had in mind for you. Back up to page one of this thread and read it.

I'll agree with he above post in terms of the old lifts. My JEEP had an old Rough Country lift on it when I bought it back around 1990. The springs were so stiff that the body would just bounce around at the rear mounts. Not sure if the mount areas of the tub broke from abuse or from the stiff springs. The metal in the mount area was cracked, as was the frame in several areas. Do yourself a huge favor and ditch those old springs for a newer kit. There are many options and opinions. I bought the rancho kit and like it well enough. Never rode in one with the BDS kit but, it's newer than my Rancho kit and may be softer.

Question about Shackles | EarlyCJ5.com

 

Yeah, that's probably what I'll end up doing. Just a matter of finances.

In the meantime, is there anything I can do, to at least make things *better*? Based on that other thread, I have a sneaking suspicion, that if I ordered up some stock length shackles, it probably wouldn't do me any good. I'll probably pull the springs out of the back, and pull a leaf out of them...

 

I'm not sure of factory shackle length. I'd have to search for it. But I don't think your shackles are excessively long or, THAT MUCH longer than stock. Trying to visualize it but, I think a shorter shackle would help your angle. I might be thinking backwards though. Might help the ride a bit but, I believe it would barely noticeable.

The factory shackles are not all that great, really. I think the advantages in strength and handling provided by a quality aftermarket shackle with a center reinforcement of some kind is worth whatever trade off might result from the extra length. I would look for the shortest available that has the center reinforcement.

 

To close to vertical does not allow the shackle and spring to work together and soften the Spring rate.......in your pictures the third picture is the only one even close to being correct................ A good starting position based on the drawing below would be 15-20 degrees for each shackle...........and when the springs finally settle with age that angle can get to 45 degrees with no worry...........right now you have basically no suspension in 3 positions!

If these are a 4" lifted spring which is ( longer in mechanical length ) than a stock spring........the fixed end of the spring hanger on the frame should have been removed during the install and adjusted to accommodate the longer length and angle of the shackle...................Of course this should be done with all the weight in the vehicle.........This is a common problem with folks that build springs who are not telling the consumer that there is a possibility that the hangers may have to be relocated.......cut the hangers off and move them and the problem goes away.............
There is also another concern with longer length springs ( lifted springs ) is that during full droop or even under full compression is the shackle length long enough to allow the spring to flatten out under compression and also long enough for the spring to go to full effective droop.........

 

Tarry: Thanks for confirming what I thought. I'm actually not in a position right now where I can actually use my welder, and move the fixed hangers, do you suppose going from a 3.75" bolt-center shackle to a 2.75" (which near as I can figure is the length of stock ones) would make any difference at all? I'd kind of like to keep driving it until I can fix it properly, without having it bruise my kidneys everytime I go over a bump.....

 

The only thing I'd suggest to possibly make what you have better would be to take the packs apart and coat the first and last 4" of each spring with grease. I see a fair amount of rust dust in that pic that is from excessive friction. It won't make a huge difference, but it sounds like every little bit would help.

How many leaves are still in each pack? Could you afford to take another one out?

 

I'd have to go down to the garage and count, but yeah, there's a bunch of leaves still in there, front and rear.

I took one out of the front already. Probably pull at least one out of the back.

 

I doubt an inch would make much difference.........in fact shorter could make it worst.......the problem is a few of yours are already vertical or negative..........pulling a leave out may help as mentioned , but it would have to be one of the mains to make any difference which will drop your jeep and further upset the remaining spring pack that is now carrying the weight.
Just got to play with it and see what works.

 

Ok, thanks for the advice guys. I'll see what I can do with pulling some leaves out. I'm not really concerned with losing height, in fact, had it not already had these springs on it, I wouldn't have lifted it this much....

 

I can't comment on the spring stiffness because I am in the same position as you. However I did add positive caster to my Jeep and what a difference.
It tracks fantastic. It has been awhile but I think I added 6 degrees positive and I don't remember where I started at. If you do it be sure to get steel shims
not the cheap aluminum ones.

Good luck...

 

Keep in mind that is just a Band-aid to the solution............Again , by removing leafs & lowering it you will still have to manage the extra mechanical length of the lifted spring while under compression......which could be an even bigger problem. Try to measure your springs ( see drawing from A to D ) .............not across the short end eye-eye but from one eye to the other following the leaves or dotted line. That vs a stock length will help you to understand what your up against to fit the relaxed spring into that space.

 

Right. I know it's just a bandaid. It's not getting wheeled right now, I'd just like it to ride somewhat better than it does, until I've got the cash in hand to order up new springs, gonna be a bit.

 

I can't make too much of an educated guess without seeing the whole spring, but... With the shackles at that angle, I'd be willing to bet the springs are darn near stock length. Not all spring companies went out of their way to use longer springs for their lift-kits.

 

Pulled two leaves out of the rear spring packs this morning, and took it for a little spin.

Wow, what a difference. Probably not great for spring life, and I don't plan on leaving it like this forever, but much much better. Got the rear shackles sitting a little closer to 12 degrees or so at ride height, and they flex like they're supposed to now, when you jump on my rear bumper.

Just for the edification, the springs are Straight Line eye center to eye center, appx 42 inches, and measuring along the top of the main spring, roughly 44 1/2 inches. No idea what stock spring length is.

 

No idea. These were put in by the PO, and I haven't a *clue* how many years before I got my hands on it the lift was done. But just judging by the amount of rust scale I buzzed off the leafs before I put them back together, they've been in there a good while. I've put about 6000 miles on it since I got it, including some semi-gnarly wheeling back in Nevada, and it's always ridden like total crap, I actually took to wearing a kidney belt.

 

When i set mine up i went with about 20Degree angle with a bunch of weight. I really didn't want them to invert or ride bad. I followed Terry, Ryans and others advice.