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M38a1, 134f To 225 Dauntless Swap Questions, Help Appreciated

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by WeeMan, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. Jun 21, 2016
    uncamonkey

    uncamonkey Member

    Greeley CO
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    Nothing wrong with keeping your Jeep original. In some ways I wish I could have kept the MB stock. It would be worth about 4x more now than any other Jeep I have now.
    Radial tires just ride nicer. My father referred to NDTs as grave diggers after his time in the Army. They do fine in some situations and they totally suck in some conditions. He wouldn't let me put them on my MB. OK, I'll just run those Michelins.
     
  2. Jun 21, 2016
    WeeMan

    WeeMan New Member

    Conway, SC
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    I'm glad you told me, I thought 6.00x16 were stock for the M38A1. And I've debated the roll bar. I know my mom is going to have a fit if I don't add a roll bar and seat belts. But I like the classic military low profile without the roll bar
     
  3. Jun 21, 2016
    WeeMan

    WeeMan New Member

    Conway, SC
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    It won't be quite all original because the 24 volt stuff has been stripped. But I'd like for it to be as originally as reasonable possible. I'm converting to 12 volt.
     
  4. Jun 21, 2016
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    Now Howard, that is only half right. You also get to go down hill. :D
     
  5. Jun 21, 2016
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Riverside CA
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    I know a guy who drove his Jeep and tow a Bantam trailer to Colorado and back several times and maintain 60mph...okay..a little less on those long Colorado high altitude grades.
    This same guy had put about 25,000 miles on his F4 for 7 years driving his Jeep that way and pulling his trailer to/from Jeep trips.

    Hmm... I think the guy finally put a V6 in his Jeep about 33 years ago ...
     
  6. Jun 21, 2016
    uncamonkey

    uncamonkey Member

    Greeley CO
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    If we are going to tell tales. A neighbor told me he went to work for Standard Oil after the war and they sent him to Toledo to pick up three Jeeps. He drove one and towed the other two back to Denver. OK Jack, it's your story, whatever.
     
  7. Jun 21, 2016
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Properly maintained they are barely adequate, but adequate.

    9" are not the best brakes in the world but if your knee joint is in good enough condition & the seat back isn't rusted half through they will stop you in a panic situation. In non-panic they're,

    -

    ...

    adequate.


    11" or disks are more than adequate, i.e preferable.

    H.
     
  8. Jun 21, 2016
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    WOW!

    You guys have hills that have a side that goes down???

    Cooool.(y)

    H. :)
     
  9. Jun 21, 2016
    uncamonkey

    uncamonkey Member

    Greeley CO
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    It's sort of like when I used to walk to school, It was uphill both ways. To borrow from W.C.Fields, "Walking along carving my way through a wall of human flesh with my machete dragging my canoe behind".
    Driving in Wyoming is about the same. No matter which way you are going, you have a headwind.
     
  10. Jun 21, 2016
    WeeMan

    WeeMan New Member

    Conway, SC
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    I guess the price of the 11" drums are hard to get over. $330 for front, $330 for rear. plus drums. or $1100 for the full kit with drums. plus master cylinder, and brake lines.

    Where replacing the 9" drums would be $600 for everything including master cylinder and brake lines.

    What about 11" drum front and 9" drum rear? I don't know if this is possible because I believe my master cylinder is single chamber.
     
  11. Jun 21, 2016
    3b a runnin

    3b a runnin Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    virginia
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    new 9 in. brakes on my 3B are marginal at best. in a panic situation, the best move you can make is let off the gas, because the brakes are just not that great. have just acquired a set of 11 in. drums for the front and 10 in. for the rear from members on this forum. put a WTB add in the classifieds here for a set of 11 in. drums. likely someone has some to sell. good luck with your project.
     
  12. Jun 21, 2016
    uncamonkey

    uncamonkey Member

    Greeley CO
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    Really, that much for 11' parts? My neighbor bought everything off of old Jeep wagons or pickups and put them on his Scout. He decided to haul the Scout off and all of the brake stuff migrated to my Jeep. I doubt that there was $200 in the whole setup. They've been on mine for over 25 years and still work better than the 10' power brakes on my Commando. I admit, water is fun with them, I may have to drill the drums some day.
    I do have that D30 front axle out back with the disks? Perhaps someday.
    Read up on the prices, you should be able to find the parts for a lot less money.
     
  13. Jun 21, 2016
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    That'll work better than the 9" brakes all around. My concern would be balancing braking force front to rear. The front wheels do most of the braking, since more of the weight of the vehicle transfers to the front axle the harder you brake. Brakes are designed with larger diameter cylinders on the front so the front brakes get more force than the rears. You want the fronts to lock up before the rears, to prevent the rear from coming around the front on hard braking. You don't want too much force on the front, since then the rears won't be contributing what they could to braking. 9" brakes with front cylinders on the reat, with front 11" brakes, might work ok. There are different sized cylinders available, which you can experiment with.

    Lots of jeepers have done brake conversions with junkyard parts. Depending on where you are in the country, there are more or fewer old cars in the junkyards... Broncos and Jeeps can be brake donors. Mid-60s Ford F-100 brakes have been used by many Jeepers, but need some (reputedly simple) adapting. A pre-74 Wagoneer is likely the easiest donor, though you'll hae to pull the rear axle shafts or hubs to get the backing plates off. Look around, do some research, and you should be able to convert for quite a lot less than the kit price.
     
  14. Jun 21, 2016
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    I got mine off a '76 postal jeep, probably ran me $500 altogether for all four corners & that was with new drums & shoes. As everyone said there's plenty of parts vehicles out there if you're willing to go scrounging.

    11 front / 9 rear has been done by many here & from all reports works well, the fronts do most of the braking anyhow.

    H.
     
  15. Jun 21, 2016
    WeeMan

    WeeMan New Member

    Conway, SC
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    I've got a Friend who has a ton of jeep parts, I'm getting a Carter YS carb and Warn M1 locking hubs from him this weekend. I'll have to ask him and see if he may have the stuff for the 11" brakes. Those prices are new stuff that I've found on the web, Jeep parts in my area are rare.
     
  16. Jun 21, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! Sponsor

    Washington DC.
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    The disk conversion can be cheaper than the drums for the parts. They will work similarly except in water. When I changed out the 9" for 11" bendix style drums on my first cj2a. It was the difference between praying I wasn't going to die in a panic stop, to stopping without a problem. I also had the single circuit master when I did that. I left the 9' in the rear too. It doesnt have to be expensive if you're willing to research and find sale parts.

    The thing about trying to drive a 60+ year old vehicle in modern traffic is that it isn't really safe or fun. Really to do it on a regular basis you're going to need to have some modern tires and more modern braking and steering or you're going to have some trouble. I have crashed at 45 or 50 MPH in an open body jeep and its not fun.

    I drive my 2a just about every day in inner city driving conditions. I have a Buick 225 v6, saginaw steering, 35" radials and power 4 wheel disk brakes. Its barely adequate and I don't drive over 55 very much at all since the speed limit is below that. I dont lack power, i do lack modernity.

    I did have a 77 cj5 that had basically all the same stuff, just a numerically lower gear ratio in the axles, so it would do 55 on the highways. The speed limit was 55 everywhere then, so it was ok. Guess i just dated myself. Anyway, it was still barely adequate.

    I am not saying you can't do precisely what you want. What I am saying is that without some modifications you may have an unpleasant time of it.
     
  17. Jun 21, 2016
    uncamonkey

    uncamonkey Member

    Greeley CO
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    Keep reading and figure out what your needs and skills are. I built a Jeep that would go over 100 MPH and I drove another that would do it too.
    Smart to drive them?
    NO.
    Fun to drive them?
    YES.
    Will I do it again?
    NO.
    Perhaps that's why I'm happy at 50MPH in the 3B.
     
  18. Jun 22, 2016
    WeeMan

    WeeMan New Member

    Conway, SC
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    I found the kit I believe I will go for. Herm the Overdrive Guy offers a CJ 11" conversion kit for $650.

    This is from his website.
    "Includes new Wagner drums, new Wagner wheel cylinders, new Wagner brake hardware kit, new Wagner brake shoes and reconditioned backing plates.

    New 11” brake kit for CJ without e-brake hookup for both axles and including front brake hoses.

    Rear brake kits will not fit a #30 rear axle

    Because of the large calipers and brackets we use in our kits you may not be able to use a stock 15″ or 16″ steel wheel. Aftermarket wheels, Aluminum or Steel, generally allow for clearance."

    I'll still look and see if I can find some older parts to maybe make the conversion cheaper but this is the route I'll most likely go since used stuff would only save me the price of the backingplates, because I want new shoes/drums/cylinders/hardware.

    Has anyone run into issues using the stock 16" steel rim on the 11" brakes?
     
  19. Jun 22, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! Sponsor

    Washington DC.
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    Yes, finned drums may not work with stock 16" wheels.

    All you really want are the backing plates. Put an add and maybe someone will be able to hook you up. The drums are bolt on, but so are the disks for the front axle for the most part. The disk set up uses off the shelf parts and may be cheaper and might work better.

    I did my disk brake setup for a dana 25 axle for under 200 bucks both sides shipped. That includes calipers, pads, caliper mounting plate and disks. They were on sale at the time, but you can still find good deals.

    If the kit you're talking about for 650 includes everything for all 4 corners, it might not be a bad deal.
     
  20. Jun 22, 2016
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    The issue with the stock wheels & Bendix 11" drums is that the wheel hoops & centers are riveted together, it's the rivet heads that cause the issues on the 15" rims. With 16" stock rims there's *just* enough clearance to work.

    Aftermarket welded 15" rims may work, or may not.

    Not sure what he means by brackets/calipers- that would be a disk conversion.

    H.
     

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