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Grease on a Carb Gasket?

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by John A. Shows, May 5, 2015.

  1. May 5, 2015
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief Sponsor

    Mendenhall...
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    I bought a set of gaskets for the adapter plate on my weber carb and in reading the instructions that come with the gaskets/adapter plates they tell me to coat the gaskets with grease. That sounds like a good idea but I've never heard of this before. Has anyone here heard of this? I'm replacing the gaskets because I have a bad vacuum leak at these gaskets.

    These are the adapter plates that mount to the intake, and then the carb is mounted on top of the adapter plates. There are 2 plates about 1/2" thick... so there's a gasket at the manifold...then the first plate, then a gasket on top of the first plate, then the 2nd plate goes on, then a gasket on top of that and then the carb.

    I've used grease in this fashion on my Polaris Razor at the belt housing to help keep water out. And I've read that these plates have imperfections in them because they're a "cast" aluminum plate rather than a milled aluminum plate. I'm thinking the grease makes up for the imperfections in the plates.
     
  2. May 5, 2015
    scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Must be specific to the brand. I've never heard of it. I've never used a Weber.
     
  3. May 5, 2015
    y2k-fxst

    y2k-fxst Member

    North English,IA
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    Have used grease on gaskets for years. Nice thing is if you need to remove the gaskets later for some reason they do not stick and tear. This means that if the carb, valve cover, etc. needs to be removed on the trail for repairs they can be reused. Grease to me is the only way to go on the distributor gasket also. I use Permatex on gaskets that I cannot get to unless I am doing major work on and will not be removed for trail repairs. Had an old mechanic show me this years ago, have used grease on hundreds of repairs without leaks. Definitely would not use Permatex on a carb flange, any excess could be sucked into the motor.
     
  4. May 5, 2015
    timo2

    timo2 Member

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    Yup, I grease all paper type carb gaskets, timing cover, water pump/thermostat gaskets...always have, never seen it cause problem.
     
  5. May 6, 2015
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I've certainly heard of it, way back in the days of yore.

    Maybe it works like lubing an o-ring, not as a sealant, but to help the o-ring slip-n-slide into good conformation.
     
  6. May 6, 2015
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief Sponsor

    Mendenhall...
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    I sent Weber an email asking them to expand on the use of grease on the gaskets. You won't believe the response I got. I tried to post it in another thread but there is a 10,000 word limit here and it was over 14,000 words. I could post it in two messages I suppose.
     
  7. May 6, 2015
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

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    Please do :)
     
  8. May 6, 2015
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Maybe you could give us the "for idiots" version???
     
  9. May 6, 2015
    CJ Joe

    CJ Joe Truckhaven Tough!

    Pinon Hills, CA
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    I put a very light coat of Vaseline on the carb gaskets. I remove the carb often for cleaning and remove the fuel bowl to access the jets ans power valve. It keeps them from sticking.
     
  10. May 6, 2015
    Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed Senior member

    Boise, Idaho
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    My father taught me to always grease carb and fuel pump gaskets. Old school, way before our modern silicone stuff. Seals it and makes the gasket removable. I usually wipe the gasket between the thumb and forefinger that has grease on it, lightly greases it on both sides.
     
  11. May 7, 2015
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief Sponsor

    Mendenhall...
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    OK, here's the first half of the technician's response...and remember when reading this, this guy was kinda being a smart ass and kinda being funny. I read the first 5 minutes before I realized his cute sarcasm...then I began to laugh.

    Here's my question:
    Hello, I have an 84 CJ7 with a 38 DGES carb. I haveleaks @ the gaskets at the adapter plates. I’ve recently ordered newgaskets and am waiting on them to arrive. I found the instructions forinstallation of the adapter plates and they say to apply grease to the gaskets. This seems really odd to me, but I do see where the grease may help with theseal, filling in imperfections in the adapter plates. Would you mindexpanding on the application of grease? Any particular type ofgrease? Standard axle grease or perhaps lithium grease?
     
  12. May 7, 2015
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief Sponsor

    Mendenhall...
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    Here's the first part of his response:

    First let me confirm we use grease for a few reasonscommon to any carburetor install, or any small engine assembly job.

    But in the end anything you have had good success with that lets the plates andthe gaskets meet seal and stay flexable and reusable works for us.

    Grease is just the universal all in one option we felt most people will have ifall else fails.

    There are lots of alternatives too many infact that are worse than nothing atall and too many silicone based seals that are used improperly and in acarburetor application cause more damage when it gets into areas where it doesnot belong long after the install and after it starts to seperate the oozoverflashing that is both inside and out side of the gasket area. Then finds itsway into some jet and we have a different call that relates to a nonfunctioning circuit.

    So the expansion on grease. What kind of grease again too many options Justgrease, will do.

    But when we wrote this I had an oppinion on what the right grease was. theugliest and thickest grease you can find. Only my oppinion I think a few of myteam will pick a nice less messy light grease but not Litium or molly.

    I am an offical Old guy some were I have the sweat shirt Old Guys Rule. When Iwas young Old guys wee the ones to beat so now I are one and I say let the kidshave there fun they will figure it out soon enough.

    I was taught this install technique by some equaly older guys when I wassomething less than 15 Maybe even as young as 10. This is one of thosebasic of automotive or mechanical skills, but unfortunatly not talked aboutmuch. a lost concept if you will.

    We intentionally use a horse hide, Card type vegatiable fiber material in ourgaskets. Its a Material that has been around sense henry started production. Ifit sits and dries out toss it in a pan of water count to 30 take a towl and patit dry and usually it will now be soft and more flexable and slightly swollenso it has some additonal crush do not soak it up like a spong then it takesmore snug rounds on the nuts to bleed out the excess water. Some times Isandwitch it in a damp not wet rag to soften it up. Its kinda an old skill mostpeople dont take that time with there assmelby

    If you think back in time these fancy sealed surface gaskets did not exist andgaskests were made to allow for casting and inperfectinos such as die Castmolding push marks and tooling release points. The new firm solid gaskets dontparticularly like these surfaces, the card based gasket we use not the greaseyou use on it will crush into the inperfections what the grease does is actslike a skin softener and a light sealant it locks in the moisture andmosiens the gasket to keep it soft and flexable. you dont take a gasket to fullcrush or over tighten it is a tight but not curshed install and you run vehiclewarm up the vehicle then tighten again 10 to 12 ft lbs works a firm knucklelock on your thumb.YOu should not have to mussle it tight. Its firm nothard torque tight. More important to have a consistant reference than one youcan grip good on one corner and not so good on the other an even consistantsnug is better than gasket crushing tight.

    the gasket does the sealing job the grease simply keeps it soft and reusableshould the oops of an install mistake and its reuse.

    As a race application which many Webers are used in its not uncommon to removethe carb tops and even the carbs many times in there use life.

    so grease is the choice over using new gaskets all the time.

     
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  13. May 7, 2015
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief Sponsor

    Mendenhall...
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    Here's the 2nd part of his response. Hope it fits

    NOW expand on what grease, ????, The heavieststringiest Truck wheel bearing grease you can find. Put between your fingerspull them apart and you will find grease strings holding it together, Thatgrease now days is harder to find any good heavy grease will do not a lithiumgrease or molley grease its just to messy and too soft, Regular old brown wheelbearing grease the darker the brown the heavier the grease tens to be the tanand light brown stuff is ok it works but I have just had good luck with what Icall Truck axel grease, Think Covered Wagon grease on the axel stuff.

    We note that for the above reasions and everyone has some somewhere so therenot out there looking for some mistry glue.

    Personaly what I have come to love is something called Hylomar, It is a nonhardening Blue Goo created and sold at one time through loctite I think theyare now back on there own. But it is non harndening reuseable and maintains atacky surface can be used as a gasket matieral or used on its own for aluminumtransmissions and small engine gasket seal it is not a silicone resists oil andgrease and is the Best Stuff on earth.

    Impossible when you lose your supplier to find.

    It was made for rolls Royce as a metal to metal seal and it was from the daywhen they built a motor and it did not leak untill you took it apart.

    I used it and learned about it in the 70s working for Formula One and Can AmRacing teams it became a standard for all of that industry From F1 to indy toNASCAR, every team had a case. it was on store shelfts and then vanished inplaces like california, Im sure there is some deadly oil or chemical in it thatone day if I eat enough of it will kill me.

    But its gone,

    So now other options are Honda Black also packaged under a loctie permitexbrand a silicone based tacky sealant that evetualy becomes firm,
    only lay it on in not more than 1/8 inch line to much and like all siliconeproducts its everywere and too much limits the compression of the part to thegasket and the casket to the mainfold.

    there are also blue versions of this but when you look at the permitex ile youwill see 4 versions of red and Blue which one is the right one is hard to figure.

    So I have a Blue that I keep and a Black that I keep and they work but dontever want to take the part off it will require a scraper to clean the surface.So any need to service or work on something becomes a hassel.

    Grease is just an option we know works and everyone has. The rest of theinformation is all oppinion from a guy who is always working on cars and doesnot like to use a chissel to get a gasket surfase clean . I use laquar thinnerto clean surfaces and I got to work I dont like primers and really costicsurface prep I simply have like my wood shop a rag with thinner on it wipeapply and go.

    so Grease is the quick option for those that simply need a direction

    I prefer Hylomar when I can find it ( some times in some states you can find itat napa and Grangers.

    Then the permitex import or Honda Black or Toyota / Japaines OEM silicone basedsealers use spareingly and as directed do not lay on heavy it starts to glazeand does not then crush out and allow proper surface torque and fit .

    and the other 100 options hanging in your parts store are all up for a try.

    I use and have used the ones listed and the other 100 based on something thatwas avalable when I could not find anything else I have used as well so withthat you have any number of options. Ours is not a mandated option just one wehave history with.

    Other things that I have used and found no love for but was something 30 yearsago was in every mechanics too box Indian head / Gaskasinch Red can whitelable its a from of Contact cement like stuff let gasket get tacky put it downthen mount plates.

    Issue done make a mistake with out having extra gaskets in hand.

    It will not be reusable.

    IM now thinking more about the thing I think you were really worried about

    I have no idea why your remounting or removing your adapters and gaskets.

    if the nuts or internal tappered bolts came use , Be sure to use loctite red onall studs and hardware, Again my preference Dont use Green that is for studsand bearings that are never to be removed.

    the small inperfections in the adapters are tooling markes and some toolworking marks they are not enough to cause any gasket or adapter leak.

    the cause of most adapter issues are

    1 install bottom plate with tappered hardware use loctie red let set and snugat lease twice or three times

    next Install Studs in top plate be sure they do not stick out the bottom of thetop plate. Take a punch and punch in three spots on base to lock the threads inplace also use red loctiet on assmebly if there is no sholderd thread the threepunch process distorting the top thread helps lock the stud in place inlue oftroque . 50% of the studs used in most applications are not sholdered.

    Mount Top plate using shouldered allen bolts with both top and bottom plates besure to bring tight in a pattern going around or in a crossing X

    Do not tighten down one corner snug then go to its opposit corner in thex but gently bring it down then progressively bring it tight then snug.

    If you bring one corner down or one center tight then go to another you willwarp the plage or even break the plate this is common.

    a leak is more commonly caused by a warped plate that is unevenly snugged. amild warp with correct even torque will bring flat and with our gaskets thatare soft and non firm and not so think as to have no crush should seal anyinperfection or minor warp. I have seen plates ( not ours ) But I have usedplates out as much as a1/16 and installed properly will pull down and seal.

    I would let us know if you found anything like that or more we do check forthat when assembled and dont commonly find any that we end up chucking butbecause we know to look we do have a quick flat plate check on the assemblytable.

    so the biggest seal issue is putting the studs on last ( note I suggestinstalling it in the middle

    you can do it last but know this if you double nut and try to pull the stud tomuch more than 12 lbs I think the studs and the plates are rated to 25 lbs, Idont use that torque myself. So I could infact be contradicting ourinstructions.

    with out a shoulder the stud will screw down like a jack screw and lift theplate and dig down into the bottom plate creating a seperation over timeit will crack or break or simply allow all the screws to over time loosen withthe strectch.

    so if installing last screw down till seated do not try to torque, ( havingused loctite ) then use the three punch method to difform the top threads

    install gasket and carb and then tighten evenly and do a snug round twice checkto general hand tight torque which is usually 10 to 12 lbs or what I discrib asa locked knukle on your thump no mussle used in the for arm to tighten.

    Everything in our kits carburetor and adapters are aluminum good firm snug istight, we offer some options on locking half nuts some people prefer startlocking washers.

    I prefer to use the half nut locking washers because it has a surface flangeand I can use a 1/4 drive and wobbly and 10 mm socket to install the carb without issues with the tight places.

     
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  14. May 7, 2015
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief Sponsor

    Mendenhall...
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    Didn't fit...here's the final:

    John

    I hope this offers some help all this is with a smile , Please dont over think any of this. Please try to keep it fun and keep it simple.
    I mean no disrespect and I do try to keep it fun , The variations are too many and the options are even more. We all do our best to get it right and get down the road as fast as we can. Thats were the fun is.

    Please laugh with me in that it is as simple as it seams, If you dont have a sealant you love we suggest please dont use a lot of silicone please keep the oozing down, the less you use the better it will seal the more you use the less likely it will seal.

    If you chose grease find the thickest ugliest stuff you can find. I bought a two pound tub 20 years ago and still have it.

    My personal reference when I have it is the Hylomar.

    Be good have fun and dont hate me too much for taking on your question with levity.

    if you do have something that I missed That you think was a problem in your adapter or with install of your kit I am not always right but I am interested in knowing why it had to come off was this something you just installed and then had to take off right away or was this a kit that had been on for some time and had an issue that required you to have to remove and start again. In our tech deparatment we have to listen in the middle of questions to confirm the real whys and whats. Commonly these things go on and run and we never hear from anyone. Having your input or your issues gives us a bigger library to pull our input and replys from. I must say I have not had this one in a long time which is why I am having fun with it as I had to think back to how long we have had that statement in the instructions and how it got there. It was infact what if someone cant find the sealant or have no idea how to make that choice. It got down to it has a purpose based on Weber design and no glued gaskets and everyone has some kinda greas if only Vasaline for dry skin scrapes and kits ( that probably really dates me more than I think)

    Any input you might have I find interesting and if you require some additional assistance, my spelling is bad my fat fingers limit my skills and most of the typos are related to those fat fingers more used to handling a open end wrench than a key board and Im sorry as bad as it may seem I dont take the time to go back and reread my fingers are slower than my mind and Im only 10 or 15 e mails behind.

    I hope you got a usable answer in here somewhere I hope you got a laugh or two. Be well and have a great evening

    Good to meet you, again hope I this was enlightening and fun and I hope I put some clarity to Grease. Anything will infact Work if its what you have on hand.

    Bud Pauge
    Redline fuel systems and Weber Carburetor conversions
     
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  15. May 7, 2015
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member Sponsor

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    In these days of canned answers that's awesome.
     
  16. May 7, 2015
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Quite a detailed response ... too much to read while at work!
     
  17. May 7, 2015
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I LOVE that.
     
  18. May 7, 2015
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief Sponsor

    Mendenhall...
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    Dude must have been really bored but he does have a sense of humor.
     
  19. May 7, 2015
    rusty

    rusty Well-Known Member

    norfolk,va
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    What a great answer. Knew of using grease long ago, got away from it for the most part, been using all the latest sealants . Think I will go back to grease and maybe save a little money. :)
     
  20. May 10, 2015
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Good answer! Good answer!!! Clap clap clap clap clap.

    No, really, what a great response. Helpful, insightful, experienced. A regular guy writing it, not a kid in customer service who has never turned a wrench.

    Send him a thank you and let's see how long THAT response is.
     

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