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fudge.

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Howard Eisenhauer, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. Jun 30, 2015
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Well, I took Tonk out for a shakedown cruise the other night just to see what was going to break. :rofl:

    Got about three miles running fine & without so much as a Howdy-Do the engine died, just cut right off without even a stumble. OK- I figure electrical or fuel- no problem, just something stupid i forgot to tighten. I try restarting & no spin- just a clunk noise from the vicinity of the starter- oops, problem #2. So I call the tow truck & back to the garage we go.

    Next day I start the forensics by pulling the bum starter, just for fun I shot some juice to it & after a few jolts it starts spinning :)

    Just to double check I try spinning the engine manually- engine no turnie :(

    Crap :(

    I pull the plugs & look in the holes with a bore scope- no valves in places they shouldn't be.

    I pull the oil pan- all the pistons & rods are right where I left them, the portions of the cylinder bores that I can seem look perfect.

    I loosen the front main cap, still no turnie.

    I loosen the middle cap, still no turnie.

    I loosen the rear cap, crank turns about 2 degrees- reluctantly, with a "clunk" noise at one of the sweep.

    I loosen the back cap some more- crank now goes back & forth about 5 degrees, reluctantly, with a good healthy "clunk" noise at one end of the sweep.

    I pull the rear cap-

    [​IMG]

    The scoured part of the journal appears , according to my calibrated thumbnail, to have grooves about 2-3 thousands deep.


    Lower bearing shell-

    [​IMG]

    Look closely & you can see some of the metal grit that was in the groove.


    The crank now turns about 10 degrees, reluctantly, with an even better "clunk" at one end of the sweep.

    This thing was "professionally" rebuilt & I checked the mains clearances myself- they were all 2 - 2.5 thousands.

    This weekend I'll pull the engine & yank the crank to see it there's any other damage.


    Anyone got any ideas about what happened?

    H.

    :(
     
  2. Jun 30, 2015
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Oil starvation somehow? Something in the oil passage?

    I feel your pain. [​IMG]
     
    Jrobz23 likes this.
  3. Jun 30, 2015
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    Man, I sure do feel bad about that. :( How many miles on it? I wonder if the bearing cap was somehow misaligned when installed and tightened......I know it seems ridiculously far fetched. I just mean that maybe somehow the bearing half got out of place and was gouged/scratched? I sure do wonder what the rest of the bearings look like.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  4. Jun 30, 2015
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    Crud blocking the oil passage to the rear main? Were the oil journals rodded or scrubbed with a rifle brush before assembly? This would be my best guess.
    -Donny
     
  5. Jul 1, 2015
    PierreDnepr

    PierreDnepr Member

    Barrie Ontario
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    What a bummer - you expect problems but not that serious - hope the "professional" rebuilder will guarantee his work. Happy Canada Day Howard.
     
  6. Jul 1, 2015
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Did you lube the bearing caps when re-installing them?

    I think we all fear this kind of start-up scenario, but you would be the last person to deserve it actually happening.

    FWIW- I've had two engines ruined by "professional" machine shops.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  7. Jul 1, 2015
    tomtom

    tomtom Sponsor Sponsor

    Huntington Beach, CA
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    Bummer. I had something similar happen with fresh fhead. It ended up being the new oil pump I had bought from Krage with the rest of the motor parts. Someone else here (Stout I think) had a similar problem to me, not sure where he got his pump.

    Do you have an oil pressure gage? Mine lost oil pressure when things went south. I suspect it had something to do with the bypass spring but I didn't look into it much. I ended up calling Walcks and he had some NOS pumps from the 80's. Oil pressure is actually higher with this new pump even though the motor is now on the looser end of the bearing tolerances rather than the tighter end when I first put it together.
     
  8. Jul 1, 2015
    Cap-n-Cray

    Cap-n-Cray I want to do this again.. Staff Member Sponsor

    Bainbridge...
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    That sucks Howard...:mad:

    Not a happy Canada Day...
     
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  9. Jul 1, 2015
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! Sponsor

    Washington DC.
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    Lame. I am sorry to hear about your main bearing and journal.
     
  10. Jul 1, 2015
    Dandy

    Dandy Sponsor Sponsor

    Estherville IA
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    Crap Howard.....:mad:
     
  11. Jul 1, 2015
    Long&Low

    Long&Low Active Member

    Geauga County, OH
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    fudge, is a nice way to put it.
     
  12. Jul 1, 2015
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    That wear on the very outside (backside) of the crank is uneven, indicating something out of round to me....journal or bearing surface? What do you guys think about that?
     
  13. Jul 1, 2015
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    cordele, Ga.
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    You said you checked clearance yourself at 2-2.5 so what I see is oil starvation also as said. Sad sad happening.
     
  14. Jul 1, 2015
    Oldriginal86

    Oldriginal86 Member

    Pasadena, Md.
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    What was the crankshaft end-play? With the bronze backing showing on the rear edge of the bearing, could the crank be pushed forward enough for the fillet of the slinger to touch the bearing. This would happen each time the clutch is depressed.
     
  15. Jul 1, 2015
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    I can't help but wonder about the oil jet in the front of the block. Any chance it could have come loose? I know it certainly looks oil starved to me too. Oil pump failure maybe as mentioned.
     
  16. Jul 1, 2015
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    I noticed the bronze showing but isn't it on the flat surface? The uneven wear in that same matching area is disturbing to me.
     
  17. Jul 1, 2015
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member Sponsor

    Northern California
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    Was that half of the bearing installed correctly? Almost looks like the oil hole may not line up with the hole in the crank...........

    Looks like a little blue tinge near that wiper , maybe the light from the flash?........what was the crank end play? The bearings look almost used for the short period of time it was run........or there was allot of debris in the oil passages???

    Pre-oiled before startup? or assembly lube on all the parts?

    Sorry to see that........hopefully the crank will make a .010 under.
     
  18. Jul 2, 2015
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Forged steel cranks are tough ... I would take some crocus cloth to that journal to remove any transferred material, and measure it. You may be able to simply replace the bearing, once you determine the cause for the failure.
     
  19. Jul 2, 2015
    army grunt

    army grunt Member

    Georga USA
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    sad!!!sorry to hear...you are about to find out if the people who rebuilt it are good guys, or (fill in the blanks)
     
  20. Jul 2, 2015
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Thanks for the input & empathy folks, very much appreciated.

    I don't think it's a starvation issue- pressure showed 60 PSI at idle when I first tested the engine & at one point I actually pumped oil into the galleries with the pan off just to see where it would come out, it came out all the places it's supposed to, there was oil in between the bearing & journal when I pulled it apart. If you look at the picture of the journal the forward part is fine- it's the area between the feed groove & the rear groove (that pressure relieves the seal) that is messed up. The oil pressure light was still off when the engine quit, it (& the gen light) didn't come on until I depressed the clutch to coast.

    If the front timing gear nozzle had an issue (I previously verified the nozzle size as the "small" one" then I would expect the front bearing to be the one that's messed up (although it could be- I haven't pulled the crank yet)

    IIRC correctly I had the end play set for .004" or there abouts, the slinger didn't jump out at me as being mangled but I'll have a closer look.


    The metal that I found in the groove is very soft- almost like lead, do they use that in bearings?

    They did a crummy job cleaning the block but I di blow out the galleries with the air hose at one point.

    I'll dig into it further this weekend.

    H.
     

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