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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Jul 2, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Yup...that's the part I am trying to figure out....Ideally i'd like to remove the tube and plug it at the block. I think its press fit into the block? With where it's located up under/against the firewall, the time to do such a thing is if the engine was out....the only manifold source of vacuum it has is the wiper connection, but that is not a problem as electric wipers would be used.
     
  2. Jul 2, 2020
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

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    Doesn't it have a Qjet on it? Normally they have a pipe thread port on the back of the carb at the bottom.
    Edit: I went back and looked at some of your pics...in post #53 the back of the carb is visible & there's no vacuum port, but in post #45 there appears to be a large vacuum connection on the front of the carb base.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  3. Jul 2, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Yes the draft tube is pressed into a port in the block. Remove the tube and install a plug (ie. soft plug).
    If you look around, you should be able to find a newer intake manifold with more than one vacuum port. If not, drill and tap your manifold to add a port. Craigslist, ebay or the local pick-in-pull is where I would look. My neighbor just sold an Edelbrock aluminum manifold to a son in law a couple of weeks ago for very little.
     
  4. Sep 14, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    reviving this just a bit as I am working the wagon a bit....that vacuum port you are referencing in the nipple for the vac advance canister on the distributor - I would guess its ported vacuum above the butterfly plates - but I honestly don't remember at this point....
     
  5. Sep 14, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    The heater core sprung a significant leak last week - I bypassed the core so i can keep puttering around in it, and I got around to pulling the core today. Looks like its probably been seeping for a long time, and finally went all out. Taking to a local radiator shop to see if they can repair it......
    [​IMG]

    Can clean up and paint the housing, and replace the rusted out hardware as well....Next up is the wiper system...
     
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  6. Sep 14, 2020
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

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    Most Qjets are set up similarly to this-the large fitting on the front was for PCV and theres and pipe thread port on the back for power brakes...both are manifold vacuum.
    s-l400.jpg
     
  7. Sep 16, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Ended up going down a rabbit hole of internet reading and research, but I am trying better understand how the sbc engine swap was done in this case. The sbc is in my 58 wagon is from 1957, it does not have the typical SBC mounts on the side of the block (they didn't exist until 58). It is mounted using a front 'cradle' mount - Something like this Hurst mount: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Spee...MIndLu0uzs6wIVEtbACh2-lgseEAQYASABEgKiHPD_BwE
    Additionally, I believe the t90J/D18 drivetrain was left in place with this swap. So when a cradle mount like this was used, I believe they just used the OEM 6-226 motor mounts? And did those mounts stay in their original place - or did the mounts get moved?
    Another thing I am trying to figure out is what was used to mount the T90 to the sbc. In other words, what kind of bellhousing and mating is there between the sbc and t90 now? Is this the sbc bellhousing with an adapter to the t90? Or was this an aftermarket bell specifically for sbc to t90 adaptions?
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    thanks - in the long run understanding this current set-up will make it easier to understand and compare some of the sbc swap discussion from Novak where they do the sbc conversion using the T90 with an adapter that keeps the rest of the drivetrain in place, but it also appears to have significantly more firewall clearance than mine currently has.
     
  8. Sep 16, 2020
    Jw60

    Jw60 Chim chiminey Chim chim cher-ee!

    Sedalia MO.
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    Can you measure the distance between the back of the engine block where the bell mounts to the front of the Transmission casting. I expect the long input shaft and a 2.625" adapter between the bell and the Transmission. I thought those early bellhousings were iron with mid mounts
     
  9. Sep 16, 2020
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

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    There's obviously an adapter between the bell & trans, but it looks thinner than the standard Jeep/GM adapter. Also your bell looks different that a standard SBC unit. It may be the original 57 unit, it's been a loooong time since I was under an early Chevy.
    I used to own a Scout with a Chevy engine...it had the front mounts too. No reason those won't work, the bad part is they get in the way of mounting a PS pump if you wantes to do that.
     
  10. Sep 16, 2020
    Ohiowrangler

    Ohiowrangler Member 2020 Sponsor

    Newark
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    The adapter against the block is 57 vintage, The bell housing maybe 57. I've only done power glides in the 57's I've worked on lately. Then the adapter for the trans to the bell housing. Ron
     
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  11. Sep 16, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    I took this measurement, but ended up not posting as I am confused as to whet is the back the back of the engine. I measured it as 7 7/8" (give or take just a smidge), but what confuses me is the think flywheel 'housing' that is between the oil pan and the obvious silver colored bellhousing....in the first picture in post 527 it is painted engine color orange as compared to the silver bellhousing. You can even see where the starter mounts to this piece - so is this piece part of a bell adapter, or is part of the engine? EDIT - based on what Ohiowrangler said about the extra adapter between the engine and bell (what I was calling the flywheel housing) - I will need to go out and measure again.

    That would be what Novak discusses - and I think would work better than the current set-up. The adapter looking pieced between the bell and the T90 is less than 2" thick. People talk about the long input shaft - but according to Novak, the T90J found in these wagons already came with the long input shaft. So that is another thing I am trying to figure out.

    As mentioned in the response to Jw60, this adapter does seem to be thinner than the 2 5/8" one Novak discusses (not sure if that is the 'standard' adapter or not).

    Agreed - These early years of the sbc have some unique aspects that don't necessarily carry through into the ubiquitous Gen1 sbc.

    Not against the front mounts at all - but I am wondering if with this set-up, if the engine ends up back an inch or two as compared to the 'standard' 2 5/8" sbc-T90 adapter....that extra inch or so, could really help with firewall clearance. Novak discusses their set-up which leaves the drivetrain in place, and while a small HEI is recommended, there is no need to dent or cut the firewall.
     
  12. Sep 16, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    So I am wondering how this adapter against the block for early sbc changes things compared to a later Gen 1 sbc....Did the later gen 1s have a longer 1 piece bell - and how does that length compare to this length.
     
  13. Sep 16, 2020
    Ohiowrangler

    Ohiowrangler Member 2020 Sponsor

    Newark
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    It looks like 6.5" on the late model bell housing. I just don't recognize they bell housing in your wagon. Ron
     
  14. Sep 16, 2020
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet 2020 Sponsor

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    Looks like an old adapter bell housing.
     
  15. Sep 16, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Active Member 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Like 73 cj5 says, it looks like an old adapter bellhousing that goes from a cast iron power glide adapter (that probably came with the motor) to a T-90.

    Here's the factory powerglide adapter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/3836782-Cast-Iron-Powerglide-Adapter-Plate-1956-Later-Chevy-265-283-V8-/293347850054

    Here's a listing on ewillys that looks like the same setup: T-90 Plus Adapter Findlay, OH $150

    Here's a helpful early CJ-5 thread about the same bellhousing: T-90 to Chevy Info/ID Help Needed!

    Here's another ewillys listing that says it's an Offenhauser bellhousing, Offenhauser Bellhousing T-90 to Chevy on eBay It says the adapter plate is for Chevy to early Ford transmissions. I think that is incorrect and it's actually a powerglide adapter. The earlycj5 thread backs that up. There should be a big GM marking on the bottom of the adapter plate behind the oil pan.

    All that said, unless the input shaft length is modified, it seems like the engine should end up in the same place no matter what combo of bellhousings/adapters were used. The pilot bushing still needs to be engaged and the clutch needs to be on the splines. There isn't much room for movement there.
     
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  16. Sep 16, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    You are getting at where I am trying to go with my thought process....so how can Novak say you can mount a sbc with T90 in place using their adapter and not have firewall clearance issues? From Novak:

    When retaining the T90, you can leave your transmission and transfer case in the same position, whereas, the aforementioned conversion transmissions all require relocation of the transfer case and subsequent changing of the length of the driveshafts. Utility Jeeps with 6-226 (or 1962-64 with 6-230 OHC) engines have the proper input gear in the T90 transmission and our kits for these vehicles take this into account.


    Firewall clearance; a general rule is to leave yourself enough room that you can service the points at the rear of the engine without the removal of the engine from the Jeep. This includes any distributor, plugs, manifolds or other sub-systems. Note here that Jeeps have an indentation just off of center in the firewall for clearance with the factory I4 & I6 engine heads and valve covers. This is a very handy place to tuck a Chevy HEI V6/V8 distributor. Denting and especially cutting of the firewall looks quite terrible and will take away from the great look of your new engine. If you are using a conventional Chevy V8 / V6 engine with a large diameter HEI distributor, you may not have adequate clearance. It is sometimes best to use a small diameter aftermarket distributor instead. This will yield you a more correct engine mounting position both in height (as much as 1-1/2" gain) and longitudinal placement. For these Utility series, the transmission and transfer case assembly does not have to be moved over or forward when installing a GM conversion engine with the T90.

    In short - I think the numbers I am trying to compare is the overall length of the transmission to block distance (the entire bell and any adapters) - longer distance means the engine is pushed further forward and more firewall clearance. As has been mentioned, for a given t90, the stickout is fixed and would determine how long the bellhousing and adapters needs to be. The T90A and T90C have 7" stickout, the T90J is longer at 9.25" (and slightly larger diameter)....my hope, albeit unlikely, is that the current swap (using the powerglide adpater etc) somehow used the short input shaft....Moving to a long input shaft would then gain a couple inches of firewall clearance....
     
  17. Sep 16, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Active Member 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    My guess is you have a the long input shaft already since that's what the wagon should have had from the factory. Like you say, the overall length from engine block to the front of the transmission should determine it. I don't have any T-90 stuff around here to measure. Others will have to provide that info.
     
  18. Sep 16, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    A member on OWF has the same set-up I do on a parts wagon in his yard - a 57 sbc283 with front cradle mount. I think his has the standard sbc bellhousing without the powerglide adapter, and uses the 'standard' 2 5/8" adapter between the bell and t90. He sent some photos (some are hard to see), but they show pretty much what was to be expected - pretty much the same fit of the engine against the firewall. In other words, the current set-up is using the long input of the t90j, and my hope that I might find an easy way to move the engine forward isn't going to happen. At some point, I'll have to decide whether it worth trying get the engine placed in a better spot, and then deal with the drivetrain shifting etc....or just leave it as is and deal with the firewall clearance issues. Wonder if I should ask about those VCs....

    I have something similar which may help. On mine it looks like the plate that the 226 motor mount is bolted to is removed, possibly by drilling out the plug weld. Then the saddle mount is bolted on to the frame mounts through that hole. From the looks of it I don't see why they bothered to remove the palte. This is (apparently) a '57 Chevy 283 in my '61 parts wagon.
    https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?attachments/img_5530-jpg.82892/
    https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?attachments/img_5529-jpg.82893/
    https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?attachments/img_5531-jpg.82894/

    Then, the T90 was adapted with a simple adapter plate. I don't know what the stick-out length is on the T90 but IIRC the 226 version had a very long input shaft. My bellhousing is obviously different than yours.
    https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?attachments/img_5542-jpg.82895/
    https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php?attachments/img_5544-jpg.82896/
     
  19. Sep 16, 2020
    3b a runnin

    3b a runnin Member 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I have a bell housing in my parts pile that looks very similar to the one in your pics. Had no idea what it fit.
     
  20. Sep 16, 2020
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    Got a picture of what you have?
     

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