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Dauntless 225 Clutches And Controls

Discussion in 'Early Jeep Restoration and Research' started by oldtime, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. Jan 4, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    2,690
    This is a general discussion covering the Dauntless V-6 clutches and controls..
    Looking for anyone with experience, questions, answers and comments about these clutches and systems.
    Later I will discuss the various clutch control systems that were used but please don't jump ahead.
    For now let's begin with a few facts concerning the specific clutches that were used.
    [​IMG]

    From 1965 into 1969 the 225 Dauntless engines were equipped with a "diaphragm type" cover plate. (AKA pressure plate)
    The very earliest cover plates were of origin from General Motors, part # 1396478.
    Anyone have information on those early diaphragm cover plates ?

    Also used was Jeep part # 948692 which was manufactured by Borg & Beck.
    Yes it's true that nowadays the phrase "Borg & Beck" is virtually synonymous with "coil spring" (AKA 3- finger) design clutches.
    But I'm talking early OEM cover plates here.
    Below we see an original # 948692
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    These original diaphragm clutches had a total plate pressure of 1600 lb. ft. of pressure.
    A common part number is 361662 when new or 351662 for re-manufactured.

    It was not until 1969 that Jeep started using the famous "coil spring type" (AKA "3 finger type" or "lever type") in lieu of "diaphragm type" clutches.
    This Jeep part # 994843 was manufactured by Borg & Beck.
    Yes it is these very same type clutches that have made the name Borg & Beck common even yet today.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    These Jeep clutches were set up with 9 coil springs and not 12.
    The original 3 finger clutches had a total plate pressure of 1765 lb. ft. of pressure.
    I believe t was B&B model # 10203

    The "driven disc" (AKA "plate and hub assembly") was identical regardless of type of cover plate that was installed.
    The earliest was GM part # 1378623.
    Anyone have information on those early driven disks ?

    By 1969 Jeep was using B&B discs manufactured with Vee Lok facings.
    Jeep part # 994841
    Here I have an original "Vee Lok" 5 spring driven disc.
    [​IMG]

    These Borg Beck discs were also available with 6 vibration damping springs.
    [​IMG]

    The earlier GM disk was rated at 246 lb. ft while the B&B disk was rated at 250 lb. ft.

    All OEM disks are 1-1/8" ten spline.
    But below I show some aftermarket discs having 1-1/16" ten spline.
    These non factory driven discs will mate to Ford and some of the later Jeep T18 transmissions.

    Here is a very high quality reman disc from BWD.
    [​IMG]
    Like the OEM discs these BWD discs measure.325 OA thickness.
    A common part # for this disk is 374180.

    Here is a very high quality NOS USA 8 spring disc by Scheifer.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Schiefer thickness is .360 vs Vee Lok .325
    [​IMG]

    So for now.... it's basically about the coil spring type vs diaphragm type clutches.

    Questions and comments are welcome and thanks for reading !
     
  2. Jan 4, 2020
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

    At the foot of...
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    I've never seen a Borg and Beck diaphragm pressure plate....you learned me something today!
     
  3. Jan 6, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Yes I have 2 of the Borg Beck diaphram pressure plates.
    One was rebuilt and the other one shown is NOS.

    I have my own opinions but what I'm wondering at this point is who prefers the diaphram type or the coil spring type pressure plates and why ?
     
  4. Jan 6, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
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    I'm not at all happy with the clutch I have with my Dauntless. I bought the Rock Auto clutch. 1966 JEEP CJ5 3.7L 225cid V6 Clutch Pressure Plate | RockAuto The clutch is very sensitive. The pedal travel is maybe 2" from fully disengaged to fully engaged. I put an adjustable pedal stop on the frame to reduce the total travel so I'm not searching for the start point near as much each time I take off. I'd still like to double or triple the travel between fully on and fully off.
     
  5. Jan 6, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    I can't find any specs on that link but the pic does show a diaphram type clutch that looks near identical to the Borg Beck diaphragm.
    Says it's made by "M pact".

    For now I'm wondering what driven disk are you using ?
    And your transmission model is ?

    Your engage problems could also possibly be the clutch control system , or the release bearing.
    I'll address those later.
     
  6. Jan 6, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
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    The disk is whatever came with the clutch. I have the stock t14 and a AA chain linkage. I don't think that linkage would change the geometry of the clutch control. The easiest solution I thought was to install a longer clutch fork. I guess I'd have to pull the transmission for that so not that "easy" either.
     
  7. Jan 6, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    O.K then it's not likely the disk.
    And your Buschert chain control should not likely be the issue either.
    The fork could certainly be the problem if your not using part # 1378486.
     
  8. Jan 6, 2020
    Bowbender

    Bowbender I'm workin' on it! 2020 Sponsor

    Northern Minn.
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    Thank you for posting this information, Ken. This is the kind of stuff that helps make this place a goldmine for those who are digging for help with these old Jeeps.
     
  9. Jan 7, 2020
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2019 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    Ken, this is very interesting, and the best info I've seen illustrating the differences between the various manufacturers' V6 clutches. Thank you for taking the time to post it!
     
  10. Jan 7, 2020
    RATTYFLATTY

    RATTYFLATTY I think you need a little more throttle

    Central MN
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    This is all interesting. I knew of the different types but never thought about the dynamics of them. I'm fortunate to have a great drive-line shop here in town that has been around since dirt was invented where I can say "I have this that I'm mating to that and it will get abused in this way, what will be the best for me." I can pass on the name if someone is looking for help, just not trying to make this an shop vs shop post.
     

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