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Cj3b With Dauntless Needs Heavier Axles With Power Steering

Discussion in 'Flat Fender Tech' started by Jeffyjeep, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Jun 10, 2019
    Jeffyjeep

    Jeffyjeep New Member

    Bucks county ,pa
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    Jun 10, 2019
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    hey guys, what have you done? I have a 3b with the dauntless and the t86 3 speed trans out of a 70 cj5. I want to do a axle swap and add power steering . What axles and what power steering have you done? We can fab, fit, and weld. Thanks
     
  2. Jun 10, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Welcome from Boston. Do you want to stay at the factory track width?
     
  3. Jun 10, 2019
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    What's the intended use for your rig? That will determine what the best path forward is.
     
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  4. Jun 10, 2019
    RATTYFLATTY

    RATTYFLATTY I think you need a little more throttle

    Central MN
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    I would vote for a 76-78 CJ Dana 30 with disk brakes. If you are just looking for a drum brake one then 72-79 CJ Dana 30 with 11” drums would be the one. As for power steering the variety of brackets to buy or build for mounting a Saginaw box are plentiful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  5. Jun 10, 2019
    Lockman

    Lockman Since 1975..... It's not my Fault Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    White City, NY 14617
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    " If you are just looking for a drum brake one then 72-79 CJ Dana 30 with 11” drums would be the one. "
    Love mine........
     
  6. Jun 10, 2019
    y2grey

    y2grey Member

    Fayetteville NY
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    Same setup. ( until we did the t18 swap) I run a cj 30 with discs up front and a 44 with 11 inch drums in the rear.
     
  7. Jun 10, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor Sponsor

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    What axles do you currently have? A Dana 25 was likely stock in your 3B, unless itwas a real late model. The CJ5 from about '63-up to '71 used a Dana 27, then the Dana 30 was used up front from '72 till the early 80s. The D30 has open knuckles, and is a couple inches wider track, making for sharper turning. What axle ratios do you have, or plan on going to? The D30 isn't really a heavier axle, just more modern. Why do you need a heavier axle?
    As far as power steering, the most common conversion is the GM Saginaw box mounted just behind the bumper as was done on '72-up Jeeps. There a Ford steering boxes that mount over the axle, either inside or outside the frame. It all depends on how much space you have to fit the steering.
    -Donny
     
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  8. Jun 11, 2019
    Jeffyjeep

    Jeffyjeep New Member

    Bucks county ,pa
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    Would like to go a bit wider, this is for off road rock crawl purposes. We take it to off road parks . We want modern brakes and axles we can be sure will not break under stress which the engine or terrain can apply. We don’t want the axles to be the weak link
     
  9. Jun 11, 2019
    Jeffyjeep

    Jeffyjeep New Member

    Bucks county ,pa
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    Stock 1961 3 b axles, we want a wider wheel stance with modern brakes . We don’t want the axles to be the weak link .its a stock 225 odd fire and stock trans. So we are thinking a full size truck axle set up like a 1/2 ton set up would be fine.
     
  10. Jun 11, 2019
    Jeffyjeep

    Jeffyjeep New Member

    Bucks county ,pa
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    Off road , rock crawling fun, need modern brakes, and axles that will handle the 225 odd fire , with a 17 year old kid behind the wheel.
     
  11. Jun 11, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    The usual targets for slightly wider axles are a Wagoneer or Scout II (?). I don't know that much about the Scout axles, but I have read that the front axle geometry and knuckle arm design is strange. The Wagoneer front axles are 58" while the CJ 30 is 53". Springs would need to be outboarded in the front, but you could move the mounts for the rear axle and put it under the frame. Wagoneers starting in 1974 have open knuckle 44s for the front axle, with a 6 on 5.5" lug pattern. If you must have a 5 on 5.5" pattern, you can swap Ford hubs on the front and use a '73 or earlier rear axle. The rear axle for the Wagoneer changed from a 44 two-piece (nutted, tapered) axle to the 1-piece flanged axle in the 68-69-70 time frame. before 1974, these are 5 on 5.5", going to 6 lug in 1974.

    If you want to continue to use the Dana 18, you will need an offset rear axle. Not many options there; pretty much limited to the Quadratrac-equipped Wagoneer 44. Any of these Wagoneers with a Dana 20 will have a more-or-less centered rear axle.

    The Wagoneer went from passenger side drop to driver side drop in 1980, with all models using New Process chain-drive transfer cases (all centered output). Jeep started used their AMC Corporate axle at the rear in these Jeeps, but the Wagoneer version of the M20 has welded 1-piece axles and thicker tubes, and is basically equivalent to the Dana 44 (maybe stronger). Jeep changed back to the 44 for the last few years of the now "Grand" Wagoneer, maybe 88 or 89 through 91. If you can use driver's drop and a centered rear, these axles are a possible choice, though all of these Wagoneer axles will have completely unsuitable ratios for a trail Jeep (ie 3.31, 3.07, 2.73).
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  12. Jun 11, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Not sure how realistic this is. Plenty of members here run the factory axles for trail riding, and drive very difficult terrain. Abuse is abuse ... The usual upgrade is to a 30 front end from a newer model CJ. This will give you open knuckles and a couple inches wider front track. If you're going to continue to run the T-86 and Dana 18, You'll need an offset rear axle. There are not many choices - the most desirable axle that's compatible with the existing track width is the flanged offset 44 from the 70-71 CJs. Not many of them out there. In '72, Jeep went to the Dana 20 for the CJ and this makes the axles from '72 on centered, which won't work with the Dana 18.

    I would also point out that spares for the original axles will be fairly cheap and available, unlike some of the replacements you might fit. Warranted or not, the original drivetrain for these Jeeps is considered throw-aways by much of the community.

    If you have custom axles made, you can specify whatever dimensions and ratios you want.

    Note the T-86 is basically an updated T-90, nominally slightly weaker than the original transmission for the 3B. Beef up the axles and that may become your "abuse fuse." Most of the owners here enjoy their Jeeps as they are, despite lacking the heaviest or strongest or most peer-acceptable components. This site is very different in attitude and objectives to other popular off-roading forums. Beefing up components to make the Jeep "abuse proof" is a slippery slope, and IMO significantly detracts from the ownership experience. Preserving the equipment is a major part of driver skill. JMO - Keep the tire size down and wheel it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  13. Jun 11, 2019
    Jeffyjeep

    Jeffyjeep New Member

    Bucks county ,pa
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  14. Jun 11, 2019
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    I agree with Tim's points about breaking stuff- when you upgrade one component all you're really doing is encouraging something else to break. :( You really have to consider how far you want to go with the mods, it is a slippery slope.

    If this jeep is new to you then the standard advice here is to take it out, play with it a bit & then see what it is you need to change to accomplish the mission.

    Now that we have your intended use the guys who have walked (drove?) this road ahead of you can chime in. There is a wide range of experience here and attitudes from "if it ain't bone stock it it isn't a jeep" to "the only good jeep is a jeep with non-stock engine, drive train, suspension, steering, brakes, frame and body".

    Also new seats.


    Welcome :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  15. Jun 11, 2019
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Yes and no. The BIG difference between the D25/D27 and the D30 is aftermarket support. There is essentially no support for the D25/D27 but a new D30 can probably be built from all after market parts and made almost as strong as a D44. And you have a factory disc brake option. I personally can't see spending any money on either of the older axles. Bolt in the 30 and be done with it. An open knuckle D44 of any stripe will require a lot of work to install.

    For a rear axle either go with Tim's suggestion of the 70-71 flanged version if you can actually locate one or full float your existing one. The full float will handle well more than the 225 and it is very easy to install disc brakes on one. Are you sure you have the T86AA transmission? I thought the last year for those was 67.
     
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  16. Jun 11, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Those that have larger builds than mine probably know better, but I would say the 225 isn't enough of a monster that your are going to endanger breaking stuff. I would say the T86 (or quite possibly the T14 which was much more common behind the 225) would be the weak spot? Of course, if you are thinking of putting a locker up front, maybe the D25 would be a concern?
     
  17. Jun 11, 2019
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    I have yet to meet a 17 year old who couldn't break *Anything* :D
     
  18. Jun 11, 2019
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Volvophilic

    Post Falls, ID
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    I'm with the other guys. Install the power steering, a locker in the rear, throw some 33s on it and go wheel. These are amazingly capable rigs without many mods if you keep the weight low and respect its limitations.

    But if you insist, the front 25 will be the first to go. A D30 has more strength in the axle shafts due to the higher spline count, and the open knuckles are less maintenance. A wagoneer/scout front dana 44 isn't much of a strength increase over a 30 unless you spend big bucks on alloy shafts. Otherwise, you're just hauling a whole lot more unsprung weight for nothing.

    If you insist on going full-width and keeping your Dana 18 transfer case, there was a rare offset full-float Dana 60 rear in full size J trucks that had the Q-trac t-case. They are hard to find, but it's worth mentioning. Some also had a light-duty 5-lug offset D60.

    If it were me, I'd try to buy a rig that's already set up for rock crawling. You'll save a ton of money and frustrations in the long run. As was mentioned, it's a slippery slope. First power steering and axles. Then you'll notice it's ripping your frame apart from all the added stresses. Tear it apart to box the frame. You'll add a more flexy suspension next because boxing the frame took away much of your articulation. You won't be happy with the gearing, so you'll swap in a truck trans. Axle ratios are next. Now you're up into the $5-6k range, when you could have sold the 3b and taken over somebody else's project for much less that has most of the work already done.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  19. Jun 11, 2019
    Jeffyjeep

    Jeffyjeep New Member

    Bucks county ,pa
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    Y2

    Yes I get it, and your response is right on.....I have several restored jeeps from 1946 through 1974...all original . I was the guy to keep everything original. it’s most valuable . As you said , it is a proven engineered system , don’t f*** with it.

    I bought this Jeep in almost road worthy condition with stock engine and running gear when my only son was ten years old, I planned a total frame off and it was gonna be the nicest 3b around. Son Gavin sat in it hundreds of times to pretend he was driving it....pretty soon he called it his Jeep.” Hey dad, when we gonna fix up my Jeep?” He had a vision. We ran the piss out of the original 4 cyl. Spent almost every weekend upstate on trails, mud holes, etc. the kid learned to drive with no brakes, a sputtering engine which you had to keep one foot on the gas to keep it running and the other foot operated the clutch and what little brake he had. Several mods along the way ...engines, trans, rebuilt rears, welded rears, lift kits etc....best times for me showing my son how the build something, test it, if it breaks know how to fix it and make it better. Axles swapping it is his idea.....I’d never say no to a kid who wants to use his ideas and put them to the test. I’m the guy who funds the projects and of coarse with me being the “keep it original “ guy, I want cut my loss. So I figured I’d ask what other guys have done to get us on the right path. Power steering is a definite. Having.disc brakes on the front would be a improvement. He likes the wide stance of “Y2grey” Jeep.

    I’m not building a Jeep, I’m building a son!
     
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  20. Jun 11, 2019
    windyhill

    windyhill Sponsor Sponsor

    PA
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    There’s something fun about wheeling a flat fender. But the bigger you build the harder a trail you have to hit to get the same thrill.
    3b with Dana 30 front and discs, find a flanged offset Dana 44, stick some 5:38 gears and ox or E lockers front and rear. Toss that T-86 for a T-18 4 speed, run 33’s. And that will be a fun little beast! If you go bigger on axles etc. then you’ll need a havier frame etc. at that point your into a much bigger project and past the point of no return. Look up Jpet and Bam Bam, there’s a kick ass rig, but still within the scope of what the frame platform can handle. He wheels the heck out of it! Have fun.
     
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