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Blueprint 225

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by tarry99, Feb 28, 2016.

  1. Feb 28, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    A few weeks ago I asked you folks for a list of Re-build parts & components for the Time-Tested Buick 225 V6. Things like Bearings, Pistons , Rings, Seals & Gaskets that you have had either a Good or Bad experience in there use. The reason I asked will be apparent by what follows in this thread labeled "Blueprint 225".

    I have collected a pretty good array of V6 components over the years and if you have followed my CJ-6 Build here you already probably know there is Chevy V8 planted in there between the rails. And if your wondering what's going on with the CJ-6 build don't worry I'm still working on it in between other projects.

    One of our members here has purchased my Buick V6 that use to reside in my old 1965 CJ-5. That motor in itself has a pretty good tale to tell. First off the Jeep came with a 4-cylinder and after Hunting at altitude for a year plus the little 4-banger was just a little challenged in the HP department. A junk yard search found a 64 225 Oddfire and during a Race at Pomona not long after I was pitted a few stalls away from a couple of guys named Jim Bell & Doug Jones that were doing some interesting and quite impressive things to the little V6 on the Drag Strip.........these guys later became known as the Buick V6 Guru's under the banner of Kenne-Bell Performance. After talking with Jim and Doug after / during the races for the next two days , they agreed to share some knowledge and help me build my own V6.

    This will be the second rebuild of this motor since it came out of the wrecking yard..........some of the original improvements were KB while others during this latest re-build will be mine coming from many years of Building and Racing Drag Cars.

    The re-build of this V6 will not be focused on making it into a High Performance race engine. What I am hoping to share is just a little of what I do to prepare a Race motor in regards to the machine work , tolerances , oiling improvements , measuring , attention to detail & assembly........There is allot of crossover on certain Items that can be employed from the Race motors that will also benefit the Street Motor that you may consider next time your re-building one...........come along for the ride!

    The Block was first boiled out and Bored .060 over & honed. All of the oil galleys were either rooted out or chased with long reamers......Freeze plugs were changed as well as galley plugs and Cam Bearings. All the threads in the block were chased ............if there is a bad thread in the block.....now is the time to fix it with a Heli-coil.
    The process of first cleaning and then starting machine work will also end in at least two final bath's with brushes and high power air before assembly starts.
    [​IMG]

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  2. Feb 29, 2016
    Danefraz

    Danefraz Well-Known Member 2019 Sponsor

    Chico CA
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    Secret sauce recipe. I'm following. Thanks for sharing.
     
  3. Feb 29, 2016
    Rozcoking23

    Rozcoking23 RUN & GET BIT!

    Stockton, CA
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    You have my attention!
     
  4. Feb 29, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2020 Sponsor

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    Ok, show me how its done correctly please. Why the tape on the journals and the cam bearings? Is that Glyptol inside the block? 1964 had 11 head bolts like a 198 with the same torque pattern, 1966 had 8 or at least thats what I read.
     
  5. Feb 29, 2016
    cj6/442

    cj6/442 Sponsor

    Fallbrook, Calif
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    MY "you know what" better not end up on that motor,Terry
     
  6. Feb 29, 2016
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Maybe this block got the Glyptal treatment in the past?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Mar 3, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Yep it sure did.............maybe not that Product but something similar back in the day.

    First thing in the build is to break out the measuring equipment and measure and record everything.........this allows you to check your machinist's work and everything else along the build. Record all the Data on a piece of paper or Build Sheet and keep it for a permanent record of all the measurements ,clearance's & parts you have used..........If you have a problem with the motor later having the ability to go back and re-measure things is a huge benefit to aid in figuring out what went wrong...............If you don't have measuring equipment ask one of your friends that does and have him measure the assembly for you............don't assume that all is OK without checking........even your machinist can have a bad day!

    A Set of Mitutoyo .0001 micrometers
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    Telescope gauges for measuring ID bores


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    Dial Bore Gauge
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    Measuring the Cylinder Bores w/telescoping gauges . Using these gauges does take some time to be proficient. Once you get the hang of rolling the gauge into the bore and then feeling the slight drag on the gauge when centered , it is easy to measure within a tenth of a thousands. Of course the bores should be measured at various depths both up & down and side to side........this will tell you how square the bore is and whether there is any taper.......in this case I'm just checking the machinist's work out. All dimensions should be recorded on a Build Sheet for future reference.
    [​IMG]
    Measuring the pistons to check the clearance between them and the cylinder walls.
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    With the rod caps at the proper torque measure the bore.........later install a rod bearing in the bore and check that dimension also. With that info you can now check your Crank Rod Journals that will give you the bearing clearance. Again write everything down.
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    It's also a good Idea to Stamp or mark all the parts to whatever cylinder they go to.
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    A Permanent Build sheet is a good Idea to have to record all the Data of the build.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Mar 3, 2016
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok 2019 Sponsor

    Tulsa, OK
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    This is a great thread!
     
  9. Mar 3, 2016
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
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    Great write up. I wouldn't offer this to just anyone...But I'll ship you my block and you could rebuild it for your thread. ;)

    Tarry,
    What does the number stamping mean on the bottom (under the oil pan)? Looking at yours there's a variety of numbers, mine has a lot of 8's, what looks like to be the number 320818 and 3 dots that were probably made with a small punch. The engine ID number is gone...I suspected it might have been removed during machining?

    Your block for reference of where I'm talking about.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Mar 3, 2016
    fhoehle

    fhoehle Sponsor

    Harford Township, PA
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    I am very much enjoying this thread.
     
  11. Mar 5, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Raining today in Cally .........first half of the day doing a Job playing Plumber , second half back at Home in the shop!
    [​IMG]

    I'm going to jump around a little on this build.......and there is a reason for this. The valves have been ground and I wanted to take a minute and check the installed height for the valve spring pack. A stiff check spring installed will allow you to make that measurement between the cylinder head and the base of the spring retainer. With that measurement you can then take your valve springs and measure them at the installed height on the Rimac spring tester.....and see what closed seat pressure they will have. You can also check out the open pressure by looking at your cam card and times the lobe lift with the rocker ratio which will give you valve lift while open.........If the springs are used and a little weak......Now's the time to reach out and buy some new springs while your working on other things........these old springs will get replaced!
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Also started to check out the crankshaft.
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    If you see numbers stamped on the counter weights and also welding or portions ground off..........that is a sure sign that this Crankshaft & rotating assembly has been balanced.
    [​IMG]

    I also like to take a few minutes and also check the rods out , first checking the raw bore ID dimension and then after a bearing is installed. Use some protection for your rods against the vise Jaws. Make sure the caps are properly torqued down using the correct thread lubricant..............these Rod bolts have been changed over to aftermarket ARP bolts that are much stronger than the factory bolts.
    [​IMG]

    Measuring with the bearing in the bore..........make sure you record all measurements.
    I also changed my vise Jaws over to Brass........as opposed to the plastic ones I normally use on Aluminum rods.....these work much better to hold the steel connecting rod in place.
    [​IMG]

    ARP Connecting Rod Bolts
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    Again, Very important as you move through the measuring cycle that you continue to add these dimensions too your Build Sheet.
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  12. Mar 6, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    You know.........I'm not really sure what that sequence of numbers mean?...........Mine has 3's & 4's with a bunch of hash tag markings alongside them on each side over each cylinder........I really think these are a factory code number of some sort with perhaps that number being coded to a previous bore size measurement that would assist the assembler to whatever piston size within a few tenths should go in each hole?...............I mean back in the sixties , who knows what they meant? ....................I'm really just guessing!
     
  13. Mar 6, 2016
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
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    Thanks.

    With the motor removed I noticed the 320818 stamped into the firewall side of the heads too.
     
  14. Mar 6, 2016
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    I think those numbers on the pan rail are grade marks for the pistons. When the factory honed the cylinders, a measurement was taken which is recorded as a letter or a number stamped on the rail according to the dimension. A factory worker further down the line pulls the appropriate piston grade/size to drop in the hole. We're talking 0.0001 differences.

    Terry, an important detail you left out is when replacing rod bolts, like your ARPs, the big ends of the rod needs to be resized. You obviously did this, but this is important for the novice engine builders to be aware of.
    We're waiting for the next intallment.
    Thanks -Donny
     
  15. Mar 6, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    Donny, That was a test..........to see if anyone was paying attention:D Thanks!..........and changing rod bolts has no consequence to whether or not you check or re-size the rods........it should be done in either case even if you re-use the old ones.
     
  16. Mar 7, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2020 Sponsor

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    When checking your rod dimensions, what happens if you find one out of spec? Do you resize it? How is that done?
     
  17. Mar 7, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    Most times its' a bore that is slightly out of round like a .0001 or two. The bore size and its squareness is important to maintain the correct bearing crush within that rod cap............factory 225 rods are not as strong as say the later 231 rods and hence the need to pay more attention to them. Re-sizing or at least checking rods should be included in your normal rebuild procedures. Rod bolts stretch over time and that is why I like to use a higher grade bolt like the ARP bolts............Having said that these 225 motors were never thought of to be High Performance motors either........Continued High RPMs will kill the lower end and that fact should be understood by anyone that owns one.
     
  18. Mar 7, 2016
    Rozcoking23

    Rozcoking23 RUN & GET BIT!

    Stockton, CA
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    Terry,
    Can the later 231 rods be ran in a 225 for better strength/dependability?
     
  19. Mar 7, 2016
    bcurtman

    bcurtman Member

    Rosebud, MO
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    Great thread. What do you consider "high rpm" for a 225 V-6? Seems like mine is comfortable changing gears at 3 grand, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
     
  20. Mar 7, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    On Paper Yes , But I have never tried using them. They both share the same Rod Length ( 5.960") and small and big end bore sizes........these would also have to be the 231 Odd fire rod which is offset. Do to there increased weight , balancing could be an issue.

    3 grand is no issue.......in fact these motors can see 5000 + very easily.........But oiling is an issue with the Odd Fired motors , that's why we try to improve that system even if it's just a little bit by adding the taller V8 gears to the pump , root out and even ream out some galleys to improve flow to the critical bearing areas and watch bearing clearances during the build. The other thing that is hard on the lower end is that heavy 52 pound flywheel......

    Again these are not High Performance engines and should be treated as such. But these motors are also very remarkable in simplicity & Horsepower & Torque. The Love affair with the Odd Fire has been around for 5 decades...................Run them responsibly , never get them hot and pay close attention to oil levels and off camber operation that could potentially starve the motor for oil and it will last longer than you care to mention.
     

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