1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

Lithium Ion Battery Troubles

Discussion in 'The Tool Shed' started by Lockman, Feb 3, 2024.

  1. Feb 3, 2024
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    SilverHill,Carolina
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    2,748
    So.....Being the thrifty, adventurous Jack (A$$ :confused:) that I am, & researching as best as I could under said description , I Decided to forge ahead & try to remedy this .
    The Story :

    I recently bought a backpack Leaf blower. Upon arrival , the 80V battery showed no lights & would not start the machine . The charger would light up green , turn on it's fan , & after 30 seconds or so it would quit & would start flashing red. The MFG said it was a bad battery & sent me a replacement ( That was Nice of them ).
    The replacement showed one light, ( Getting Better :susp: ), but in the charger it did the same thing ?????
    MFG. then took 5 days to get back to me to state that because I bought this from an "UN- certified vendor " , they would not warranty it any longer. I Immediately went to PayPal for ongoing Litigation , but that's another story , for perhaps another time ;)
    I researched & studied other's limited available problems with this & Decided to purchase this Power supply , for $99 :
    A Saving Lithium Fix.jpg What I had learned is these batteries have a BMS, that can tell the charger not to charge, when asleep. :confused: Slow charging with an external Power supply can often wake them up ? ....... Lo & behold, It worked on both batteries ; got 2 lights showing on both & they each power the Blower now . ( :bananatool:)

    Alas , neither will charge on the OEM charger , as it does the same thing as mentioned above with both .
    ( :confused: )

    As I'm more of a Tradesman / Mechanic type vs an Electrical Enginneer, I would appreciate any knowledge that Y'all could offer. :)

    I can buy a New replacement charger for $ 40 , most likely from another "UN- certified vendor ",
    'Cuz their certified vendors want $ 100 - $ 150 for one , & try my lousy luck , ( :banghead: ) ...... or I can just continue to use my new Power Source. I am going to try waking up some other 20V batteries latter today.

    What has any one else done with these & what do Y'all suggest I do ????????
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2024
  2. Feb 3, 2024
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2003
    Messages:
    8,189
    You need to be careful with these batteries. The "normal" charging regime is to apply a constant current until the pack reaches a certain voltage & then hold that voltage.

    With a constant voltage source you may be exceeding the ampere charge rate when the pack is discharged which is bad, & probably eventually fatal, for the cells. Worst case your garage goes up in flames. :(

    With that PSU you should be able to set the max current output & final voltage if you can find out what the right values for your pack are.

    The battery monitor may be as simple as a temperature sensor to shut things down if the cells get too hot or it may be trying to signal the charger to control the current output, that would make sense if the charger is intended to work with different sized packs.
     
    Stakebed likes this.
  3. Feb 3, 2024
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    SilverHill,Carolina
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    2,748
    Thanks Howard.
    Yes Sir , I made myself aware of these settings and I did use them while charging . Watched closely for any heat build up , too.
    The BMS does have a too hot temp sensor, but mine did not operate at all & were@ room temperature when I attempted to charge them on the Factory charger.
    The factory charger is only to charge 80v Batteries , from 2 amps up to 4 amps . My batteries are 80V _ 2 amp & 2.5 amp.
     
  4. Feb 3, 2024
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2003
    Messages:
    8,189
    Sounds like you're more of an electrical engineer than you think :)

    Pending a return to the vendor I'd open the charger up- probably something stupid like a bad solder joint on the monitor.
     
    dozerjim, Stakebed and Lockman like this.
  5. Feb 3, 2024
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Messages:
    10,011
    What has any one else done with these & what do Y'all suggest I do ????????

    I've posted here before about my experience of cheap Li-Ion batteries and defective chargers.

    In brief, a tool battery exploded without warning and came within seconds of burning down a building I'd been restoring for several years. It made a super-effective firebomb beyond anything I could have imagined. I'm not joking. My knees go weak when I think I used to leave them
    'on charge' in my own home.

    I would STRONGLY advise not screwing with Li-Ion batteries or chargers, and most especially not using discount brands.
     
    Daryl, dozerjim, Ol Fogie and 2 others like this.
  6. Feb 3, 2024
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    SilverHill,Carolina
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    2,748
    Thank you for your tutelage ( :) ) Howard . KISS principal usually applies, Eh?
    Take a look at the bottom of the board , just north of that heat sink board, if you may. Obviously , this Brand New unit was in water ( :censored: ) . I'll clean all of this ' debris ' out & see what I can do about soldering this.
    I'll Report back later .
    A broken Charger wire.jpg :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
     
    dozerjim and Ol Fogie like this.
  7. Feb 3, 2024
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2003
    Messages:
    8,189
    I hate to say it but it's probably not worth the effort :(

    There's going to be crud & corrosion under the components you won't be able to reach.
     
    Danefraz, dozerjim and Ol Fogie like this.
  8. Feb 3, 2024
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    SilverHill,Carolina
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    2,748
    Correct Sir. Just discovered that & came to same conclusion . I'll buy the other one under a 3 year warranty.
    Thanks for your support on this , Howard......I've missed the All Star game , to Boot :banghead:
     
    Danefraz, dozerjim and Ol Fogie like this.
  9. Jul 6, 2024
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    4,439
    Not quite the same but I recently played with my Milwaukee 18v pack. I've got a big 9amp hr? Pack that stopped charging all the way and ran out of juice quick. Apparently Milwaukee has an issue with the way they charge. There are 3 cells that charge. If one drops lower than the rest it will sense the cell that gets to 4v first I think it was and shut off. So the low cell never gets fully charged. 3 out of 4 LEDs lit on battery indicator. Same with discharging. Lowest cell discharges to lowest cutoff point and shuts down. Still a little juice left in the fully charged cells, but it can't use it.

    Ended up getting a variable voltage and amperage power supply and trickle charged each cell to 4v. Used it, and recharged on factory charger. All good for now:bananatool:
     
    Lockman, Danefraz and Fireball like this.
  10. Jul 6, 2024
    Dave Deyton

    Dave Deyton Member

    Fuquay-Varina, NC
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2003
    Messages:
    918
    I'm glad that worked for you getting them to charge.
    Wife's cousin gave me his Bauer rechargeable 20V drills, driver's and chargers. He went with a Craftsman system. They work well. One bad charger and 4 bad Li On packs. Went through them, no broken wires or bad solder joints, so I tossed them and bought new ones. Did some trouble shooting on the bad charger but couldn't find any replaceable parts.
    I was afraid to try to charge the cells individually, knowing the dangers of Lithium-Ion cells.
    At least they were recycled in the box of bad rechargeable battery packs at Lowes.
    This is interesting because I would have loved to keep them, but I didn't want them to explode.
    I hate to throw things away without giving them a chance to be repaired. I suspected it was just one or two bad cells.
    The HF tools are working well, and I have extra batteries and chargers.
    Not Milwaukee, but they do work well. They run a long time and have plenty of torque.
    Got the cordless impact drivers on sale also they work well for changing tires on the old Jeeps.
    The Li On stuff is so much better than the old NiCad stuff. Got some good Dewalt drills that a battery pack would be about as much as a new drill.

    Dave
     
    Lockman likes this.
  11. Jul 8, 2024
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    SilverHill,Carolina
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    2,748
    Good job ! All the lithium ions are the same . I learned that the MFG's put in a BMS for liability issues . I invested $ 90 in a Kungber power source . I'll will discharge them to below that BMS point ( Like you Did ) & then you can adjust the amperage & voltage per individual battery packs, without taking them apart from their case's. It's then a very controlled , slow charging back up to full , while using this power source , instead of the OEM charger . after that, one can go back to using the factory charger.
    .......You know when one pack Cannot be Saved, when it starts to show Heat buildup in the first minute or so. Just gotta recycle those.
     
  12. Jul 8, 2024
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Messages:
    10,011

    YES. Or, "worst case" you die. Some of the other tech comments above feel rather cavalier to me, and frankly dangerous.

    As I posted above, last year I had a (chinesium no-name) Li-Ion pack and charger burst into violent flame and hurl exploding burning cells in every direction. It all happened in seconds. They are literally impossible to extinguish. Only a minute earlier they were sitting inside a historic wooden building I've been restoring for about three years. It would have burned to the ground, no question.

    Or what if I'd had them charging at home, as I do, while I slept???
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2024
    Twin2 likes this.
  13. Jul 8, 2024
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2003
    Messages:
    8,189
    Yes you absolutely have to respect the amount of energy stored in these things- both the electrical discharge the the spectacularly reactive nature of the lithium metal itself.
     
  14. Jul 8, 2024
    Jw60

    Jw60 Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Trails end,...
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    5,156
    Let's just step back a century.
    upload_2024-7-8_14-47-3.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Twin2, Dave Deyton, Fireball and 2 others like this.
  15. Jul 8, 2024
    Dave Deyton

    Dave Deyton Member

    Fuquay-Varina, NC
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2003
    Messages:
    918
    Wow!
    Hey Y'all watch this! Go ahead and dial 91, and then I say go!
    What could go wrong? Perfectly safe!

    Dave
     
  16. Jul 8, 2024
    Jw60

    Jw60 Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Trails end,...
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    5,156
    Hydraulic? (Good reason to go with power Saginaw)
    Or whenever you find yourself under water... again.

    upload_2024-7-8_16-58-36.png
     
    Fireball likes this.
New Posts