F-134 Rear Seal Replacement Drama Continues

Okay so here is the update on the rear seal replacement on a 1957 F-134 that I have been dealing with for a few weeks now. Since there was no way I was going to get a new neoprene seal in by removing the oil pan from the underside, I ended up pulling the engine and have been pretty much stuck on this projet for a couple weeks messing with it as I have time.
So what I did was flip the engine upside down on an engine stand and removed the crank so I could install the upper half of the new seal. When I got the new seal in and bolted the crank bearing caps back in place, the crank was so tight that I could not turn it at all, it was so tight. I have since had the crank in and out about six times trying to get this right but still not there.
After talking to a mechanic friend, he said that the seal halves are probably too long and to trim them down just a little to release some drag. Well, yesterday I shaved almost 1/8" off the length of the lower seal and found that it did indeed make the crank easier to turn but I am not sure if it is still too tight. I first installed the center and front bearing caps to be sure they were not contributing to my drag issue. With just those two installed, I can turn the crank nice and smooth with one hand. Now, when I installed the rear seal this last time there is still some drag but would like to get some opinions. I am now able to turn the crank with two hands with a fair amount of drag but not real tight. I cannot turn it with one hand. This is without the pistons attached. Is this too tight? I assume there should be some drag because if it was real loose the seal would leak. I am just concerned that by the time I get the pistons installed it going to be too tight. I also know that if the seal is too tight, I will just burn it up on start up and have to do this all over again, God forbid.
I may try to trim a little more length off of the lower seal to relieve some more drag but I need to be careful not to take off too much or I will be buying another set and this is already my third set so this fiasco is getting expensive. I can see that as I bolt down the bearing cap, both seal ends come together just before I get to full torque. Before, both seal ends were coming together when the bearing cap was about 1/16" away from fully clamped down hence the original binding issue. I know I am using the correct seal because this is my third set, two sets came from Midwest Willy's and one set came from Kaiser Willy's and all three have been the exact same but they are just tight. Proof that I never would have been able to install them from the underside on this motor.
What do you guys think? I am really losing patience here and would really appreciate some advice. I am on the verge of just going back to the old style rope seal and let this pig leak all over the place.

 

The tight rear main seal has been a serious concern for several years now.
I don't know how it came about but virtually all are manufactured way too tight.
You are correct to be concerned because rear seal failure will definately occur.
To my knowledge no common manufacturer of seals has addressed this issue.
I've personally inspected Victor, FM and others to no avail.
There are a couple of ways around these oversized neoprene seals.
But I suggest getting a correct seal.
A while back Lou Larson stated that correct seals had just recently been produced.
I suggest that you contact http://www.northstarwillys.com/ for detail.
And while your at it let us know what they have to say.

 

Wow, thanks so much for the heads up. I will definately check out northstar and get back with you.

 

Hey Oldtime,
When you say Lou Larson, is he with Northstar Willys? Just wondering if I should ask for him when I call tomorrow.
Thanks,
Mike

 

Oh and one more thing for everyone's information. The oversized seals I have been having all of the trouble with are manufactured by Crown Part# 800093K. Dont waste your money on this one.

 

Louie is retired from the Minnesota parts business. Still an active Jeeper though. John at Midwest Military has a new production seal offering as well. I may get one and try it. I still like the old rope seals. As I mentioned a while back on a related thread make sure you don't have have an earlier crankshaft that has a too large diameter on the seal riding journal.

 

Great info Cuz,
I wil look into my crank diameter today. So I assume that by conventional seal they are speaking of the newer neoprene seal? Do you know what the diameter of the crank would be that used a rope seal? Would it be larger or smaller that the listed diameter?
Thanks again

 

Wes is right, Now I remember.
Louie stated that John Bizal (Midwest Military) recently had some good neoprene seals made up.
So contact him direct.
I need to get a couple of these myself.

My previous rebuild (my daily driver) had a crankshaft with deep grooves around the seal area.
As you know the seal area is normally not ground when a crankshaft is turned.
It requires a special narrow wheel not availble to most crankshaft grinders.
The loosest fitting rear main seals taken from a batch of several overly tight seals worked fairly well after turning the seal area down .014".

The crankshaft in my current rebuild has had the seal area taken down about .004.
So I'll need the correct seals for the Hurricane I'm currently rebuilding.

 

I just did the rear seal on my engine and opted for the rope type. My guess is trimming a neoprene seal is not a good idea. It's probably desinged to crush to it's final shape and work within a range of journal diameters.

 

With everything you are doing to this block, you might as well replace the bearings too.

 

New bearings is not a bad idea although the existing bearings look pretty good. Since I have never actually replaced bearings on an existing crank, do I need to know the crank diameter before I order them or would they just be the standard bearings for an F-134?

 

I figureds that trimming the seal may not have been a real good idea as well since I exposed the metal strip on one end but that is why I only trimmed one half. I figured that it would still have the rubber on the opposite half to butt up to. Anyway, figured I didnt have much to loose anyway. Well, its back to the drawing board again anyway.

 

I have detailed Willys crank Blue Prints loaded on my web site at:

http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modu...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

 

The bearings are usually marked whether they are .010 or .020 oversize. Its on the back of the bearing. If you think it hadn't been apart, then they are standard for sure.

 

Never assume a bearing size. Mic the crank journals to be sure and then when you receive the new bearings clearance check them with plasti-gauge.

 

Okay Guys, here is my update.

First of all, I went home at lunch and measured my crankshaft at the seal surface and found the diameter to be at 2.307 which is within the required tolerance between 2.302 & 2.312 for it to work with a conventional (neoprene) seal.

Next, I sent an email to Northstar Willys yesterday evening asking if they had a seal that would work for me and they replied this morning and said, "we have another seal that has worked well for $24.95". Although their response was somewhat encouraging, I wanted to make contact with John Bizal at Midwest Military (952)-440-8778 to see what he had to say. Let me first say that John is a really nice guy that knows his stuff and is happy to answer all questions. John told me that at this time, Midwest Military is the only retailer offering the correct seal for the F-134. He told me that there has been a bad run on seals being made the wrong size for some time now and that they are having their seals custom manufactured because of this ongoing problem. I told him that the seal I have been having all of the trouble with is the Crown Seal # 900093K and he said that is one of the bad seals on the market right now. I happily gave John my credit card number and he will have a seal mailed out to me today. HOT DAMN!!!!!!! The cost of the seal is$29.50 plus $2 handling fee and shipping that should be around 5 or 6 bucks. So the total cost should be right around $38.00. It costs a little morebut hey. I told John I have been pulling my hair out on this one for a few weeks now and he commented that I am most definately not the only one.

Finally, the first two sets of seals I purchase were from Midwest Willy's. The first seal they sent me was deformed so I called them and they sent me a second seal at no charge. The second set of seals, I destroyed trying to install from underneath the vehicle which I will never try again. The third set of seals are the seals I tried to install with the crank out and found to be so tight, I could not even turn the crank. Clearly an improperly manufactured product since my crank diameter is well within tolerance. I will be contacting Midwest today as well to request a refund on the two bad seals I purchased through them. I will let you guys know the outcome on thatone as well.

Man, what a relief. I think I am finally on the right trail. I may actually get this beast running again.

 

Actually, I believe most manufacturers often used various oversize bearings, to utilize cranks with undersize journals from factory machining errors.

 

not to state the obvious- just to get it out of the way. Was the seal lubricated the before the crank went in?

 

Yes sir,
The seal was lubed. First I tried assembly grease, it was so tight I thought maybe the thickness of the grease was contributing to the problem so I took the crank back out and tried to lube it with motor oil to see if this might make a difference. Still so tight, I almost gave myself a hernia trying to turn the crank. I tried multiple ways including trimming down the length of one of the seals which was the only thing that helped but still way too tight. Finally came to the understanding that the seal is just manufactured too fat. It was never going to work.

 

whereas things like this "have" happened, it certainly is not standard practice.