Alternator upgrade frustrations...

You are overthinking this. You can even bypass the switch for a jumpered batt terminal and it will still charge.
And as an aside, that mad site isn't the gospel. There a couple things on that writeup I noticed that wern't entirely accurate. If you are interested in learning about alternators or electrical in general, www.the12volt.com is a much, much better place to start.

 

Couple of things.
First are there any pins or anything like that holding the brushes away from the stator or where ever they need to be touching.

Second, try running a ground lead from the ground terminal on the alternator to the negative on the battery.

not sure if this is dead horse or not.

 

I don't quite follow this.:?

Thanks for the link -- an interesting site, but I haven't yet found anything there about alternator wiring. I'll keep looking.

I agree madelectronics is not gospel -- after all, it's on the internet. For one thing, they don't actually show the wiring to terminal 1. I suspect that's deliberate, as they are selling a kit to do this. However, their "religion" does generally make sense, and seems to agree with a number of other sources.

So it's theory vs. observation. When they disagree, at least one of them is missing something. To me, residual magnetism bridges that gap. A new (or newly remanufactured) alternator might lack sufficient residual magnetism to get things started.

How much would it cost to connect terminal 1 at least as an experiment? If it were me, I'd rather do this than remove the alternator and take it to the FLAPS. As a bonus, you get an indicator light. Although I've referred to this as an "idiot light" myself, it really does provide simple, quick, in-your-face diagnostic information.

 

You were talking about these "theories," but the MAD site doesn't contain any of them, whereas www.the12volt.com contains information about ohms law, simple formulas, basic component information, etc. MAD is a business trying to make a profit off selling you electrical components. They have an extremely high markup on what they sell. I'm not saying their stuff is wrong, don't buy from them, whatever, and for me to use the word "inaccurate" was infact not entirely accurate, it's just that I think they hype up certain things more than necessary, leave other information vague. I've seen some threads, not just on this forum, treat their site like a tech reference, and I guess I just don't personally think that is prudent. YMMV.

Again, you are just overthinking this. No, residual magnetism has nothing to do with why #1 doesn't need to be hooked up to the lamp. It has to do with internal diodes, and I think it's getting a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

He did already:

bdford, if you've done everything exactly as you've described in your posts, take it back to FLAPS and demand an exchange. Test it on their machine if you're curious, but I've seen their machine be wrong more than once, both good ones checking bad and bad ones checking good. Heck, half the time I don't think the counter guy actually knows what he's doing when he hooks it up, anyway. And I seriously doubt that thing gets any kind of periodic maintenance.

 

http://www.autorewire.com/tech/charging/Delco10SInandd.html

My SI only has the one wire from the BAT connection through the ammeter to the battery.
Internally excited.

And another one:
http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/10si.htm

 

Did you full-field that alt while running to check status of the alt and the int regulator? Some folks don't know how to do this but it tells you where your problem area is..

 

mines wired just like the diagram with out the idacator light wired in.I have avolt meter it runs at 14.7 volts I wenched out a cherokee the other day had no problem with charging.

 

Internet. Grain of salt:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=599620

No skin in this game, just like for things to make sense.

 

The one other thing that comes to mind, however, is a reman unit I got one time that had a case dipped so bad I thought the term #1 was a #2 and vice versa. I just swapped wires and it worked.

 

To quote a great line from someone I respect, "Dude, relax. The sky is not falling, the world is not out to get you."

I have no interest in defending "that moron's idiotic ramblings". The internet is rife with rambling morons posing as experts, so those of us who try to extract actual information from it have to evaluate those sources and either reconcile the discrepancies or discard "facts" which are irreconcilable. If we get it wrong, and publish our conclusions, we just add to the problem. With that in mind, I freely admit I am no expert. I do know enough to be able to do the evaluation, but I am as subject to error as anyone.

Exactly because there is so much conflicting "information", I am trying to sort it out for myself, and hopefully others might benefit. Experience, such as yours, obviously carries much more weight than anyone's suppositions. However, the preponderance of "sources" I have found conflict with one of your assertions. That is, in a 10SI 3-wire regulator, terminal 1 provides the field current to get the alternator "started".

Since in your experience, this is not required, I assume I am missing some piece of information. In a rare moment of clarity, it came to me to go to the source. Here's what I found:

Delco Remy 10SI 3-wire Service Bulletin
Delco Remy 10SI 1-wire Service Bulletin​

I think these should be pretty reliable.

Comparing the schematics of these two configurations, the only possible source of initial field current in the 1-wire configuration is residual magnetism generating current in the stator windings, which feeds through the "diode trio" to the field windings. The 1-wire document clearly states this.

I have not seen anything definitive stating that this same effect will not work in a 3-wire configuration, so it is reasonable to expect that it might. This would account for your observation. The 1-wire regulator does apparently carry a "SE" (Self-Exciting) designation, but I don't know if there's any real difference in the components. The "diode trio" might use diodes with a lower voltage drop, but that's just speculation on my part.

However, it does seem likely that the self-excitation would require a higher speed before the alternator will "kick in". It is also possible for the alternator's residual magnetism to dissipate to the point where it is no longer able to self-excite (this is also clearly stated in the 1-wire document).

For these reasons, I believe that a 3-wire configuration will be more reliable, and perform better at idle, if terminal 1 is connected to a switched source. This connection should at least be through a diode, but apparently is often through an indicator lamp and/or resistor.

I hope, by this dead horse that I am not joining the ranks of internet morons. My intent is not to offend (and I apologize if I have), nor even to prove myself right. I hope rather to add to the understanding of this subject.

 

Ah, I think I see where you're coming from here. The TSB you posted was for the type 110. To the best of my knowledge, those haven't been produced in years. (decades, even?) Every reman I've ever received has been a type 100 or equivalent. Here's the TSB you need dated '83, no diode required. (the other one was dated '80) There is, unfortunately, a double print of pg 9 where pg 2 is supposed to be, but you can still see the example wiring diagram:
http://www.delcoremy.com/pdfs/service_manuals/legacy/1G-266.pdf

I don't consider myself old, thirty-something average guy into wrenching since my 'tweens. Not sure how many FLAPS reman 10si I've purchased in that 20yr period, but I've never received one that required #1 to be connected. Maybe the fellas that have been doing this a little longer can say for sure when the switch was.

Here's the current Delco selection chart. Pg 7 shows remans are converted to type 100, Pg 126 discusses retrofit onto older DC Generator or external regulated type systems and does not mention any need for #1 to be connected, states any combination of ammeter, indicator, or volt meter can be used without affecting operation:
http://www.delcoremy.com/LiteratureDownload/Documents/SpecGuide.pdf

bdford's reman should work with or without the #1, but he says he tried it connected, so it's immaterial anyway.

And you're right, I shouldn't have posted what I did about the other guy in this fine public forum. My apologies to the site.

 

Fair enough. Thanks for the updated references. Too bad they don't include schematics of the regulators -- it would be nice to see if changes were made.

The diagrams do show a resistor instead of a diode connected to terminal 1. I think the function is equivalent. The diode is to prevent the "diode trio" from backfeeding the ignition system (and other loads) when the key is turned off. This can cause the engine to continue running and would likely damage the internal diodes by overloading them. The resistance has the same effect by limiting the current enough to prevent the ignition from operating and to prevent diode damage.

I still believe the startup current without terminal 1 connected has to come from residual magnetism, unless they have implemented a much more sophisticated regulator. It may be that the stock turnover in a Breckenridge FLAPS is much slower than in OKC, and the alternator he picked up might have sat on a shelf for years, allowing the magnetism to dissipate. OK, it's a WAG, and there's no way to know.

If this is the case, momentarily connecting a test light between the BAT terminal and the #1 terminal with the engine running would restore the magnetism and he could then run with terminal 1 disconnected. This might have been an interesting experiment.

He did say he tried it connected, but also asked several times whether it should be connected. I don't recall what the other end of the indicator light is connected to in the generator setup, and we don't know whether the lamp was intact. There's enough uncertainty there to at least raise the question.

In any case, thank you for this enlightening discussion.

 

Not trying to throw a monkey wrench in here but (about residual magnetism) generators had soft iron pole-shoes that held residual mag, but alternator rotors will not normally hold mag when power is removed. Iron filings wont stick to rotor with no power applied and many vehicles will not continue to run with alt when battery is disconnected. All gen systems will. Note in Delco write up (Do Not Polarize Alternator). My 02.

 

I had seen other people mentioning this difference between generators and alternators, but could not find a definitive reference. However, the Delco documents do specifically refer to residual magnetism.

I don't recall the part you mention about not polarizing alternators, and I can't get to the docs right now, but could they mean that you cannot use the same technique as was used with generators? I do recall mention of a technique for restoring the magnetism in the alternator's rotor.

Again, no personal experience with this, just what I've been able to read. For that reason, I'm inclined to shut up about this until I have a chance to get some experience. Please try to keep the cheering to a dull roar . . .

 

I have zero exp w/gen. with the 10si, you can just rev the engine and excite itself, no mag necessary. heck, you can disconnect the batt and still run the alt.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

thanks for all this info...

a couple of things, I beleive that i hooked the correct wire to the indicator light, and it did nothing, but I did not go as far as pulling the harness apart and tracing it back all the way to be 100% positive...

I will go and track the wire down tomorrow and reattach it to be certain, before pulling everything off and taking it to the store to be tested.

I did one test on the alternator that was interesting. I read somewhere that you could rest a screwdiver against the back of the alternator to see if it is magnetized, and it did have some pull on the screwdriver

thanks

 

Here's a link to a pretty good discussion about Finding the indicator lamp wire.

Also, the screwdriver itself could be magnetized.

 

here we go...

I did a couple of things today. First off, to all measurable standards that I could judge, the setup without the #1 was working, with the exception of that the voltage tested at the battery was in the 16 range at idle without any draw such as the lights. With the lights on, the voltage would drop to the 14's and continue to drop. This is being f'd up by the low battery charge that I was working with. I took it to the flaps and everyting is working. I reattached the battery and the alternator, and I believe that it is working correctly as before. To furthur screw with the picture however, I did purchase a spade terminal clip and resistor piece of wiring, that attached the #2 to the batt, and the #1 to a resistor. So far, everthing is a go...

thanks for the help, and in the future, if I can do a test with a new alternator with, and without a #1 terminal attachment, I will do so

I do recognize that this was a heated discussion, and appreciate the information, above all else!

In the past, this amount of readily availabe information would of helped me greatly.

Ben

 

Well after reading these posts and related links I decided to rewire my alternater to 3 wire hookup. It has been wired 1 wire for about 20years. I haven't put that many miles on but it has always been a little low on volts.
It has been one of those things that I never got around to looking into. I feel very good about finding this great forum and all the people here. Visiting here has got me on the road to doing alot of little things to the jeep that I have been letting slide.

Anyway I went for a ride tonight and can honestly say that the three wire installation is worth the time and trouble to do. My voltage at idle and going down the road is up by at least 1volt and most likely more. It doesn't sound like much but is very noticeable. I remember reading in one of the reference links that a 10% drop in voltage can cause a 30% drop in performance in things like ignition.
The idiot light is also kinda nice to have back again. SP