Axles-what to do?

I have a 75 CJ5 that I'm building. I am trying to decide what I'm going to do as far as axles. I have a dana 30 widetrack housing thats empty and a narrowtrack dana 30 thats complete but has 3.31 gears in it. I have a complete amc20 widetrack but it has 2.73s and 2 piece shafts. I'm planning on running 33s to start due to having a set on hand. I'd like to move up to 35s or 36s eventually but don't want to go any bigger than that. I'm trying to decide what to do as far as axles. The rest of the driveline is a 304, t176, 300. It will be locked front and rear. It wont see much street driving other than to a trail. I'm trying to decide what to do as far as axles. I'm adding up the costs to build the dana30/amc20 widetrack set and its coming up to around $1400 by the time I'm done and that doesn't include a front locker. I'm planning on running a spool in the rear. By the time I put a locker in the front I'll be in the axles $1750. Now thats for 1 piece rear shafts, balljoints, spool, master rebuild kit f&r, 4.10 or 4.56 gears f&r, new rear brakes, upgraded front shafts w/larger joints(don't remember the # off the top of my head), a new front carrier 3.73+, and a lockright. I'm not interested in doing a spring over at the moment. I don't feel like I need 1 ton axles w/36 and smaller tires. I'm not a very abusive driver offroad. I had an 83K10 on 36 in buckshots with 10 bolts f&r and never broke an axleshaft. I just don't want to build these axles to find out that I should have built some dana 44s or something else. It seems for about the same money I could build dana 44s but then I have to mess with adapting the axles to the jeep. What would you guys do?

Thanks
John

 

My bosses jeep here at the shop has a M20 in the rear with one piece shafts and they are holding up great. He is not very easy on the jeep at all...esp. with a 360 and 4.1 Tcase. He is also welded front and rear so it dosnt get much harder on the parts than that. He was having a good bit of problems with the front D30, even with chromolys and superjoints, it would either brake a shaft or the hub would break. But after swapping to a 44 in the front he hasnt had any problems axle related. Now the only problem is keeping driveshafts from twisting.

Shoot me a pm with what your needing for axle parts and I'll try and save you a couple $$.

 

If you have the original 1975 D44 NT rear then I would say run the D30 NT front with it and 4.56 gears. The main area you will break right away would be front axles shafts at the U-joint ears. If you have a low quality set of hubs they may break first.
The D30/D44 will take alot of abuse before it breaks on 33's. You can always replace either axle shafts with alloy axles front and rear later when you go to 35's.

You can always use the D44 rear stuff later for a Waggy swap!

 

I'm running a NT D30 with 35's. I broke two u-joints this Spring. I bought a set of Alloy USA chromoly shafts. They have D44 sized u-joints and so far have held up no problem. The difference in u-joint size is quite noticeable. I'd skip the M20 though. There are tons of D44 Jeep rear axles around. They're probably cheaper to upgrade than a M20 too. Lots more options with the 44

 

Thanks for the replies. The whole story is I bought an 82 CJ5 that had to much frame/body rust when I really got into it. I then found a 76 CJ5 frame/body for sale about 3 hrs away. Of course when I got all the way up there I find its really a 75. Kinda sucks cause I already have a pro comp 2.5 in lift. Due to this, I do not have the original D44 NT. The D30/AMC20 in the 82 are narrow track. I bought a widetrack 30 bare housing and complete widetrack AMC20 so I would have more tire clearance when turning. When I went to look at the 82 the guy had some 35s on it and they were rubbing the springs badly when turning. Thats why I went after the widetrack axles. A little extra stability never hurts either. I still don't know what I'm going to end up doing.

Neptco19, what size tires is your boss running?

John

 

Step up to the 44's. The CJ AMC 20 has issues with the welds coming loose in the pumpkin and the tubes bending. If you were staying with 33's then the 30 would be fine but the diameter and weight of a 35-36" tire is really more than the 30 can handle. Why spend money to upgrade something small when you are starting from scratch when you can build a stronger from the get-go for not much more or the same money? If you already had a bunch of money or already set up 30 and 20 then I'd say beef them up, but not when starting from scratch. I've seen way too many 20's bend housing. In fact I've re-tubed a bunch with 3/8" wall dom and it's not cheap. The 30 ring and pinion and case is just not up to handling that tire size. Some people get away with it but eventually something's gonna give. It's like the guy who for 20 years had a lit cigarette while gassing his lawn mower. Never had a problem for 20 years then suddenly boom. Just the opinion of someone who has built a LOT of axles.
Nickmil

 

36 TSLs.

 

http://www.southernjeeps.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=22908

Here ya go!

 

We've decided to try the built dana30/amc 20. This is actually my womans jeep. I've got to many of my own projects to have one. Nickmil is probably right but we have the widetrack axles. She doesn't really want bigger than a 33 so this jeep may never see a larger tire. I can always upgrade the axles later if I have problems. Its only money right? I did get the upgraded axle shaft with larger joints. I plan on putting gussets and possible trussing the rear axle for some extra strength. Anyone have any good pictures of truss designs for amc20s?

Thanks Coby61 but those are narrowtrack. My narrowtrack housing was trashed. The pinion bearing got so bad the pinion ate into the housing and the carrier.

John

 

Seems like a godsend. My motto is I won't buy a jeep made after 75. I'd be willing to bet the rear axles in 72-75 jeeps are the best rear axle in a jeep. Mine's indestructable.

And not to step on anyones toes, but I would never widen or lengthen a CJ5. Reason being, there are amazing trails around here and the only people that could squeeze in were CJ5's and CJ7's. The TJ's went home. Toyota's cried. Since then a hole got dug so everyone falls into a huge gapping hole when trying to enter. Now its a CJ5 only trail :driving:

 

I guess I'm committing a jeep sin but I'm putting my set of widetrack axles under my 75. I bought upgraded front shafts that take a 5-760x joint, 4.56 gears, powertrax locker front, M20 spool, and one piece shafts. Now I just have to build the axles and the rest of the jeep. Thanks for the input.

John

 

nickmil,
What is the greatest difficulty in retubing an AMC-20? I have some machine shop experience. Although he hasn't bent or spun his tubes, I have a friend with a 360, T-177, Detroit locker, Moser axles and 35's in an 80 CJ-5 and this guy just abuses the hell out of the Jeep and has been doing it for a while. So far no failures. But we envision the day that he'll spin or bend an axle tube. A friend gave him a AMC-20 out of a Waggy and we're wondering how difficult it would be to narrow down the Waggy 20 and swap the Moser's etc. into it. For starters, will the Waggy housing ends accept the Timken set 9 bearings used with the Moser 1 piece kit?

 

When we built the Dana 60 TJ axles, a 50 hydraulic press wouldn't press the tubes into the pumpkin. A 100 ton press did just fine. Just FYI.

 

What is that, about a.015" interference fit?

 

Not sure if the Timken set 9 bearings are the same as the waggie tube. They may have changed the axle bearing but a simple look up at a parts house should solve that.
As said it takes a LARGE press to press the tubes out, after the welds are removed. They need to be torched, plasma cut, or carbon arc'd out. Pressing the tubes out isn't too hard. Pressing the new ones in is the rub. The AMC 20 pumpkin casting is pretty thin and distorts/cracks easy. We have a special made support that goes in the carrier bearing saddles to keep it from distorting. We also have a special made horizontal jig for building housings. You will need to cut off the old housing ends, machine the tubes to fit into the pumpkin, then have a means for aligning the housing ends on the tube and weld it all together. We have a machined bar and machined pucks to align everything. Two pucks go in the carrier bearing saddles and get torqued in place. The machined bar slides through machined tolerance fit holes in the pucks, then another puck slides on the bar to align the housing end. Then everything gets tacked, checked for square, then welded up. We set the interference fit at about .005". .015" is too much, chance cracking the housing. There is a bit of variation because sometimes the pumpkin gets distorted pressing the tubes out. That's another reason for using an alignment bar, to make sure everything is square when done. There's nothing easy about this. It's a lot of hard work and close measuring to make sure everything comes out right. The other thing is when it's all welded up if not welded correctly the housing can quickly become a pretzel as it cools. Nickmil

 

The Wagoneer Corporate 20 (M23) already has thicker tubes than the CJ 20 (M20) AFAIK. Wouldn't it be easier to cut the ends off and reweld rather than to replace the tubes? The M23 is stronger all around than the Dana 44 according the the FSJ guys, having 1-piece axles and heavier tubes - you could consider going to a Wagoneer track width and sell those fancy Moser axles.

 

Thanks very much for your replies. Yeah, sounds like a lot of work. For starters, I don't have access to a large enogh press. Perhaps the idea of cutting and rewelding the housing ends would be the way to go. It would have to be a really good weld. I know racers do it.

 

You still have to have a way of aligning the housing ends with the carrier bearings/side gears or your axles will not be running true. This will wipe out axle bearings and differential side gears in short order. Nickmil

 

we just put wagoneer axles amc20 d44 in a 89 wrangler.worked out very well.u can clearly see that amc 20 in a waggy has much heavier axle tubes than a cj amc 20

 

My concern is the front end. If you are running a front locker and a 360, don't even think about using a 30 front. A 44 in the front would be ok as long as you stay within your tire size plan. Even with that you should save up for better axle shafts and joints.