Help, I'm doing a head job

I recently bought a 1960 cj5 w. a buick 231. After replacing all the fluids, and spark plugs and thermostat, I started getting steam in the exhaust of the passenger side bank. I pulled off my heads, after removing the battery, alternator, fenders, radiator, grille and hood. I found a significant amount of fluid in cylinders 5 and 6. I haven't really found a reason for this. I have looked really carefully, and don't see any cracks in the block or head, or obvious places where the old head gasket failed. What I want to know:

What could have caused this? Can a bad head gasket look good?

What should I do while I have everything this accessible?

Should I replace the headbolts? Where can I get a set for the Buick 231?

What services should I look for at a machine shop?

I was thinking about having the valve guides replaced, and make sure the valves are correctly seated against the head. Should I have them check if the heads are straight? If they are not, should I leave them as they are, or have them shaved? I've read a lot about engines, but this is my first time this deep into one. What other machine shop services am I neglecting?

Thanks,
click my link to see the pics of it (somewhat) torn apart

 

Thats alright Sparky, I'm in Wisconsin for the summer. I found a place called PartsHut which seems like they know what they are talking about, but seems small. My neighbor had some work there, and said they were good.

 

I keep replying to my own question

Has anyone dealt with National Cylinder Head? http://www.aluminumcylinderhead.com/

They told me $175 / head, plus $50 in shipping fees to trade cores. The $50 included them mailing me the new heads, and me shipping the old ones back. So I'm looking at about $400.

The machine shop quoted me $160 as a minimum to recondition the heads, any extra work is more on top of that. I forgot to ask if that included replaning.

How much is new springs and valves worth? I don't know how many miles this engine has on it, but my heads look like they have seen a fair amount. There was a Fel-Pro gasket on them, which I don't know if GM uses those or not, but if I had to say, I'm not the first person to have these heads off. One bolt was already stripped taking them off. The casting itself is damamged where one valve guide goes into the engine. They have a fair amount of carbon buildup, and were really dirty before I cleaned them. I'm getting water coming from an unknown source into my exhaust. What would you guys do? Should I spring for new ones, or have mine machined?

Please respond, I know you guys have opinions. Tell me I'm crazy to not just stick a gasket on the ones I got and put em back on doing nothing.

 

Anyone in the Wisconsin area familiar with this process? I'm about 20 miles west of Milwaukee, and would be grateful forever to have some advice and/or help putting the new ones back on, whichever I end up with.

Thanks,
Doug

 

You can check the flatness of the heads yourself with a long steel ruler and a feeler gauge. I recall from my TSM that there's a spec for overall warpage and a spec for local warpage - like no more than 0.006" overall and no more than 0.002" over 6" (just an example - not the real numbers!). You can do the same with the block surface.

Typical head sercives include surfacing, parts replacement (valves, springs, seals), grind the seats and valves, recondition the guides, replace the valve seats, hot tank, magnaflux (check for cracks). Any thing beyond that, like porting and polishing, or welding, is custom work.

Surfacing removes any warpage in the head surface. I've found that shops will always recommend surfacing, regardless of the condition.

Parts replacement - you pretty much have to trust the shop. Valves must be replaced when grinding would produce too sharp an edge (which would heat up and not last). Stock springs and retainers are typically not very expensive. There's a gauge that measures how much pressure springs make at a specific length - this is a tool the shop will have.

If your heads already have replacable seats, the shop will tell you which (if any) of them need replacing. Hardened replaceable seats can also be fitted on heads without replacable seats. These are sometimes fitted to older heads to make them more durable with unleaded fuel, but I think the V6 heads don't need them.

You should ask for a 3-angle grind. This is the basic valve job, and most shops only quote a 3-angle grind. Usually that includes disassembly, inspection, cleaning, the actual grinding, and reassembly. You'll have to buy new valve seals, and the shop will install them when they reassemble.

The shop will probably recommend some kind of reconditioning for the valve guides. You can choose to skip this (if it's a quick patch up job, or if you know that the guides are ok). The cheapest reconditioning is knurling; the shop will use a tool to press grooves into the insides of the guide, raising the surrounding metal. The guide will then be reamed to spec. Depending on the shp, they may recommend to install valve guide inserts to restore the diameter of the guides. The best replacement guides are press-in bronze, or so I understand. There are a few different methods available, and the shop will want to install the tyope they are familiar with.

Magnafluxing (checking for crack) usually means applying a magnetic powder and magnetic field to the part. The powder will line up along any cracks, making them easier to see. There are also dye-penetrant methods of looking for cracks. I don't know the details, but if you suspect a cracked head, it's a worthwhile step.

Welding is also available to repair cracks, although it's probably cheaper to find a replacement head for most apps.

Try to find out in advance how much a used replacement head costs before you commit to extensive machine work. Often the cheapest route with a badly warped or cracked head is to junk it and find a good used replacement.

Hope this is helpfull. best regards Tim

 

BTW choose a local shop, if you can. Ask around for other people's good experiences. Go and talk to the machinist. This sort of thing would be very difficult by mail or phone, I would think.

 

Timgr gave excellent info! Being as there is a known problem with coolant leaking SOMEWHERE but unknown, I'd recommend having the heads pressure checked. This is a process where pressurized coolant is introduced into a cylinder head and can find cracks and leaks that a standard magnafluxing won't. Nothing wrong with magnafluxing or magnetic crack finding, but just not as thorough. Bronze guides are about the best but also very expensive. Standard cast iron guide inserts give about the best bang for the buck. Knurling is ok, but can allow oil to seep down into combustion chamber and cause more oil consumption than normal. Not a huge thing, but can happen. Also, knurling doesn't last as long and doesn't allow the heat to be pulled away from the valve and stem as well due to lack of surface area between the valve stem, oil, and casting. I'd also have the valve guides machined for teflon valve stem seals, also called PC seals by some (after the brand Perfect Circle). They seal much better than standard umbrella seals or O-ring type seals. Very small thing to do if someone is putting new guides in anyway.
GM didn't use Fel-pro gaskets back then so someone has been into it. Even my 1980 231 had steel shim head gaskets from the factory! Have them check the valve springs. You'll probably find they need replacing. Typical on a GM stock motor if over 100,000 miles. Nickmil

 

Nick: I've always used PC valve seals--the best. For guide material, I've always used bronze (phosper bronze) types. But lately, from my motorcycle expierence (Triumphs) the latest thing is Nickasil (sp). Triumphs eat guides and for years the fix was bronze. But lately, it's become Nickasil. The military has used them for years in tanks and such. Just now trickleing down to MC's I guess. They are the most expensive of them all, but on a Bonnie you only have 4. The material also works great with SS valves.

If I remember right, Nickasil is a high nickle silicon content cast iron material.

 

Yup, the beauty about bronze guides is they are somewhat self-lubricating also, and clearances don't change as much as with other types of guides so valve stability is much better and because the guides are so much more stable great for aluminum heads. That's what I have in the Brodix heads in the race Jeep. I'd be interested in finding more about Nickasil. I'll have to do some searching. Nickmil.

 

Nick: I'll go back in my "Triumph" association publications that I belong to. I think it was just in the last issue that they talked about guides again. They discuss them all and their various attributes.

If I can find it, I'll scan the article and e-mail it to you.

 

timgr knows what he's talking about. I grabbed some notes from my community college engine rebuilding class I had 15 years ago and timgr's info is spot on.

 

I took them in

I found a second machine shop, by accident. I was looking for one, that is supposed to be a major shop, and got the wrong address on the next line in the phone book. By chance this place was an industrial machine shop. I went inside with a head in my hand, and the guy says you got the wrong place, but the place next door needs the work, and the guys been doing it a long time for someone else, and just opened his own shop. Motor Service and Machine, Inc. in West Allis, WI. I probably talked to the guy (Dan) for an hour. He had a completed head for a 350 in the shop, which he showed me, and I got to see their machine shop. He seemed to be very familiar with all types of the 231 and 225, and gave me a bunch of tips for putting it back together. He wasn't sure of the price till looking, but said absolutely worst case replacing everything was $325, but my valves had been replaced before, and would probably be fine. Probably be under $200. He was going to hot bath and pressure test first. If the head fails the pressure test, he said he had another of that casting that he would sell me for $25 before the work is performed. He said my valves absolutely needed to be reseated, which I could see once he showed me, and he showed me where the old head gasket failed. This stuff is a lot more obvious when you know what to look for. He said turnaround time of one day, which seemed fast to me. I guess I better get my painting done tonight, so I can start putting it back together. I took some more pictures, but don't have them uploaded yet.

Doug

 

Yay! Sounds like good service. Getting firsthand info like that is invaluable! One day is fast, but he may not have a lot of work, just starting out.

 

you spoke of coolant in cyls #5 and #6; drivers 1-3-5 pass 2-4-6
these cylinders are on opposite sides of the engine.
are you doing both heads?
if not I would recommend that you do both sides

EDIT: my info was for 225; 231 numbered differently?

 

Im doing both

I actually grabbed those numbers based off the 225, cause thats what my Haynes manual had in it. You are correct, the cylinders nearest the firewall on both sides had water in them. I'm having both serviced. Now, the passenger side I'm sure was headgasket, cause I saw the rusty spark plug, and the steam in the exhaust. Dan at the machine shop pointed to where the gasket failed. I didnt examine the other one too carefully, as whatever I did to one, the other should match. The driver side I'm not so sure the fluid didnt get in there taking the head off. Draining the radiator does not drain all the radiator fluid out, so there was still some seeping out when I took the head off. The plug for the number 5 cylinder ( rear driver side) had some oil on it when I changed plugs, so I wanted to pull the head anyway.

I finished my painting tonight. Grille, fenders, radiator, front half of frame, power steering, battery box, firewall, and hood are all now painted with Rustoleum Black Satin primer, high heat black, or white primer. I did a final coat on the body panels with Rustoleum White Gloss. This is going to be the best $30 paint job you have ever seen. I also painted the headlight rings chrome. The running lights I think arent worth painting chrome, Im going to see if the local autoparts store has a round light like that in stock.

For tomorrow, I want to drain the oil, and pull the oil pan before I put my engine back together. I also need to convert the electrical system from using an external regulator to an internally regulated alternator. I then need to remove the broken bolt where the alternator belt tensioning bracket meets the block. Finally, once this is done, I might actually put the heads on, lube the chassis, put some air in the tires, and drive it some.

 

being from California, I would have worded your subject line differently.............

JB

 

cide1....my concern was that you do both heads
and you say that you are
answers my question, thanks