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The "You're an Idiot" restoration

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by benmack1, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. Dec 29, 2012
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166

    I suspected that. Well, I just put it together without them. We'll have to see if I have any vibes. Seems so much more solid without them as the perch fits the springs better.
     
  2. Dec 29, 2012
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2003
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    4,538
    Actually they are to set the caster angle for the steering geometry. You may or may not need them. Someone may have drilled them out (incorrectly) and installed them. Properly done they should only have a hole large enough for the bolt thread to go through. The round head of the bolt should sit on top of the shim and fit into the recess in the perch. That anchors the axle to the spring pack. If you end up needing the degree shims you will need to buy new ones (steel, not aluminum) and probably get new center bolts for the spring packs that are long enough.
     
  3. Dec 29, 2012
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Thanks. Just to take this a bit further and make sure I have a correct assembly or understanding. These sit on top of the spring and directly underneath the perch. At least that is how they came out. I think this was the original set up. There is a button on top of the spring pack. I never took the springs apart, but it seems like a round stud not a bolt head. These plates sit on that button head. The problem as I see it is the button then is mostly consumed by the spacers we are discussing and there is essentially no button/stud left to actually go up inside the spring perch. The springs seem completely compacted (meaning that stud or button seems to be as it should be). This whole set up has me confused and wondering if I have done something back-asswards. When I leave the spacer out it seems to fit perfectly and everything is much more solid with the button/stud inserted nicely into the spring perch bottom.

    Question 2, I am not seeing how they affect the caster. They seem completely even, not like a shim but rather just a 1/4 inch type of spacer.

    Here is a kind of crappy pic. I can also take another look tomorrow to see if there is some tapering to them. As I understand caster, it would be tilting the axle mount forward or backwards essentially rotating the C's on the end of the axle. I don't see how these things that I have in hand are doing that. Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention.

    Any more thoughts are welcome to help me fully understand this.

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  4. Dec 29, 2012
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    So in the name of a little progress here is an short update.


    I decided to install the partially assembled axle onto the springs and frame as mentioned in the posts above.

    Here is a number I noticed on the bottom of the front springs.

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    Some part numbers for the u-bolts and I used the same spring shackle bolts as I had before on the rear, but here is the number again.

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    Axle bolted on. I had to drill out the mounting plates as the U-bolts are 1/2 in and I think the originals were 7/16.

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    Marring up my paint job a bit. Also, the big U-bolt that goes over the carrier housing is just a hair too large and you can see the spacing. I didn't pay close attention to my disassembly to see if it also had any space but it was rusty as heck anyway and I probably couldn't have been able to tell. Anyway, I hope this will not be a concern once all torqued down. I can't see where it can go but thoughts are welcome. I have had a hell of a time finding the right u-bolts. If I ever order any more, it will be from Point Spring and driveshaft, no one else. This Omix-Ada and rugged ridge crap isn't the best from my experience anyway.

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    I love putting stuff back on the frame. Feels like actual progress.
     
  5. Dec 29, 2012
    Mike S

    Mike S Sponsor

    Cameron Park Ca.
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    Messages:
    811
    If they are flat, they are not caster shims.

    Here is a photo of the ones McRuff made for me-----a bit hard to see the taper, but it is there.

    Also, notice the pocket milled in the one on the right, the spring bolt sits in it, and still sticks up enough to engage the hole in the perch.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Dec 29, 2012
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    I rented a ball joint press from autozone. Popped out the old BJ's from the donor knuckles. Went smoothly with the right tool.

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    I then worked on getting the U-joints apart. I am using the stub shafts from the donor (disc) axle and the carrier shaft ends from my original.

    I removed the c-clips, then used two 2X4's on the floor and a regular sized hammer striking the axle just next to the u-joint caps on the shoulder of the knuckle ears. Went smoothly. A few cracks of the hammer and the caps were out. Turned over and knocked the other side out. I then took the stub shafts over to the press and popped off the dust shield. Man, now that thing came off hard. Alot of pressure and BAM when it let loose. Geezus!

    Here are the stubs with dust shields dislodged.

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    here is the donor stub and drivers side long shaft from the original axle. Ready for the new spicer u-joint after some clean up.

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    Pass side same thing.

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    I also took a minute (literally) and popped out the lug studs and separated the old rotors from the donor axle hubs. This harbor freight 20 ton press is really a handy item. I got this about a year ago and have only used it a few times but when I have it has really made the job easier.

    Again ready for some clean up and new bearings, races, lugs and rotors. Filthy work ahead I guess - Ugh.

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  7. Dec 29, 2012
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Hm, that is totally different than what I have. My spring stud is quite large compared to what I think I am seeing in that pic. I understand what a shim should look like I believe. I had looked into these for the rear in the case of a lift I was thinking about awhile back. I can see how this would work on the front too and adjust both pinion angle and caster at the same time. That's not what mine seem to be. The ones I have are simply flat from best I can tell.
     
  8. Dec 29, 2012
    BrettM0352

    BrettM0352 Member

    Fort Worth, TX
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Messages:
    448
    I was thinking rear axle. If they are flat spacers, I suspect they were used to help with the draglink/ tie rod clearances/angle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  9. Dec 30, 2012
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Messages:
    3,784
    You get up into Pennsylvania ..........there are a few good Jeep wreckers up that way..........one sticks out that I did some business with a few years back called STORKS AUTO...Bernville,Penn. should be on the net. PM if you need a phone number.
     
  10. Jan 26, 2013
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Reassembly continued....

    I got everything painted up for the knuckles outward.

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    Popped in new spicer 5-260X u-joints into the axle shafts

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    Pulled the old spindle bearings using the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer rental set up below from autozone.

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    Not sure how easy to see in these pics, but I drilled the spindles between where the bearings seat for a grease needle hole to pump it full upon final assembly.

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    I put the new spindle bearings in the freezer overnight and then pushed them in very carefully. They don't seat all the way down. Just some light tapping with the right sized socket and put them in just far enough for the rubber inner seal to seat flush or just past flush.

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    Greased up and the seal in place. Groove toward the as shown in these pics. Away from the bearing.

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    Used the napa BK1 bearing kit. Comes with 5 pieces. The inside big rubber seal, fiber washer, dust shield, inner seal and bearing. The napa product was an SKF bearing product.

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    Got my new ball joints in place with zerks installed so I can grease them.

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    Upper
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    Lower
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    Installed the knuckles. (greased the BJ's first). Raise up in place. Then torque the bottom BJ nut to 50-75 ft lbs (I went to almost 75). Then torque down on the split ring (new, came with upper BJ's) to 45-50 ft lbs. The knuckle begins to really tighten up at this point. Then torque down the upper nut to 80-100 ft lbs and watch the knuckle resistance here. Mine ended up about 85 ft lbs and snug to turn, not tight to turn. The split ring on the moog ball joints really protrudes below the C, but I've read in many places this is typical and works fine. Also note, I put some never seize on the BJ threads.

    Here is the socket. About 16 bucks shipped.

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    I also got new bolts for the turning stops. Just some grade 8 bolts I picked up at tractor supply. 3/8-24 X 1.5 inches.

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    Ready for spindles.
     
  11. Jan 26, 2013
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Installed the new rotors onto the hubs.

    New lug studs.

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    Shop press is probably the best tool I ever bought. When you need it there isn't much that can substitute for it to really do things easily. This whole part of the job took probably 5-10 minutes total.

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    Using an old lug to push on.

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    Popped in the new races. Used the old ones to push them in with some light hammer taps (sand filled plastic hammer is all)

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    Inserted the axles, then put on the spindles. I put some never seize on the rib that fits into the knuckle.

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    A good look at the big spindle seal

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    Then brake backer plates

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    Rock shields and bolt it down with new lock nuts. I got the lock nuts at the local fastenal. 3/8-24 Top lock nuts. These aren'te grade 8, but I think will be just fine.

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    Some assorted shots

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    Finally, this is as far as I got on the weekend, so I put some covers on the spindles to keep the crap out until I can get the hubs in place.

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  12. Jan 26, 2013
    Mike S

    Mike S Sponsor

    Cameron Park Ca.
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    Messages:
    811
    Between all the photos, and all the grease you have smeared on things, you must have spent a lot of time washing your hands before picking up the camera :D

    Seriously, this is a great example of documenting the process for anybody who follows in your footsteps.
     
  13. Jan 26, 2013
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Yeah, I can't even begin to count the rolls of paper towels I have ****ed away on this front axle. My wife is not all too happy with that either!:mad:
     
  14. Jan 27, 2013
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Got my front hubs in place finally.

    I decided to go with my orignal lock outs, the warn lock-o-matics. They just looked sturdier than the regular lock outs that I had from the donor axle. I suspect the donors are fine but I don't have a clue on the history so went with the ones that came with the CJ5. I also figured heck they are somewhat more unique and that's kind of neat. Can always be swapped out for regulars later if needed.

    Thus, I have the different hub nut set up. I have an inner washer against the bearing, then the nut, then the special washer set up for the set screws and the outer threaded collar with 3 set screws. Once you know how this is set up it's really an easy and nice install in my opinion.

    I torqued down the hub nut to 50 ft lbs, had a fair amount of resistance on the hub then backed it off about 1/6 of a turn (about 1 bolt hole on the hub bolt pattern).

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    I then put on the lock out hubs. These hubs are a bit different than the regular ones. They have two full sized sections (rather than an inner section and over-outside section in the regulars). I put a bit of RTV between the hub and the inner section. Put on the snap ring then put on the outside section. Just a touch of grease in the outer (throw out part). Also a little hint when putting on the snap rings, reach behind the knuckle and pull the shafts as far outward as possible to make the snap ring groove as far out as possible.

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    Time for some brakes.

    Pads I used. Just cheapo's. Hope they are OK for awhile.

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    Reman calipers. These were about 20 bucks or so. Absolutely no reason not to go with remans, cleaning and rebuilding the old ones would be a nightmare.

    These go on slick, really easy to put on. I like this set up. Put the inside shoe into the backer plate (sits in place between the two lobes), then outside shoe into the caliper (holds in there nicely) and slide on the caliper over the disk. Slide in the slider and tensioner spring on the bottomside that hold everything tight and put in the set screw. All the hardware came with the reman'd calipers. Done!

    After looking at the pics again, Maybe I'll pull off the calipers and paint them. Not sure yet.


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    And finally, a rolling chassis!!!!! This is a big milestone for me. Never done anything like this before. A long way to go I know but at least got this far.

    I have two sets of rims. The orignal wide ones and a set of narrow ones I picked up earlier in the build. Both seem to fit over the new disk brake set up for I hope my backspacing is all set.

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    I need to get a tie rod. The original is in rough shape and bent anyway. Does anyone have any special suggestions on tie rods or just get an OEM style and be done with it? I do seem to need those spring to axle spacers I was talking about a few pages back as I can't quite get the OEM tie rod in place as it is hitting the spring during install.
     
  15. Jan 27, 2013
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
    Joined:
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    When I first bought my Jeep it had the Lock O Matic hubs. They work fine with an open diff. When I put the Powerlock in they tried to lock up all the time. Although I don't really understand why as my understanding is they require the front driveshaft to turn everything to force them to lock up.
     
  16. Jan 27, 2013
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
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    166
    OK, dumb question time.

    I just was standing back looking at the chassis now that I actually have 4 wheels on it. The front looked wider than the back!!!! WTF? So I measured and sure enough, my front tracks roughly 2 inches wider than the back? Have I missed something? I guess I can't be sure it isn't the rims, I never measured all the back spacings. Or is this something to do with the drum to disc swap I just did? Man, everything seemed to fit like a glove during the install. This is one of those jaw droppers for the moment. Anyone got a thought on this???:evil:
     
  17. Jan 27, 2013
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2003
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    I'm not really knowledgeable about the Intermediates. I do know that a D30 is about 2 1/2" wider than a D27. I used wheel spacers on my rear offset D44 to make it roughly the same width at the D30. I wasn't aware of a difference, front to back, in the width on an Intermediate CJ.
     
  18. Jan 27, 2013
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
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    166
    Been reading all afternoon about this axle width thing. Seems it might just be the way it's supposed to be. I read that the 72 D30 has a WMS to WMS width of 53" and the D44 rear is 50.5". I have read a couple different numbers but those seem to be the most repeated ones. That would explain my difference of around 2 inches from crude measurements.

    Can anyone with an intermediate CJ5 take a measurement and let me know if others are similar or if I am missing something?
     
  19. Jan 27, 2013
    rusty

    rusty Well-Known Member

    norfolk,va
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2006
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    1,652
    My 75 has 32 11.50 tires and measures 68 inches in front and 66 inches in rear. Yep 2 inches. Dana 30 and a Dana 44 . Love your build. Keep it up please.
     
  20. Jan 27, 2013
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
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