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T98 With V6 Adapter...

Discussion in 'eBay and Craigslist' started by FinoCJ, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. Oct 28, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  2. Oct 28, 2018
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe pusher

    Maryland
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    Meh. Steep, probably out of a truck. You can get a T18, rebuild it and xfr case adapt it for less than that .
     
  3. Oct 28, 2018
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy Sponsor

    York, PA
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  4. Oct 28, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    This definitely appears to be a V6 t-18. With the bell this is actually a decent deal if you wanted to make a V6 T-18 clone out of a T14 CJ5. As always it is best to pull the cover to double check the condition before buying. Might be able to get it a little cheaper as he might not know exactly how rare this is.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  5. Oct 28, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

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    The guy selling this is the same guy selling the seats in my other CL posting...see if I can take a look at both. If it truly is an OEM v6 T98 set-up...then maybe someone on here is interested. My biggest issue with swapping to a 4speed at this point is I have the 10spline OD for the T14 - and even more of an issue, is the OD barrel gear is sized for 3.15 Tera low gears...so I would have to change out the planetaries.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
  6. Oct 29, 2018
    Dauntless1971

    Dauntless1971 Member

    Bend, OR
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    It appears to be a bit of hodge podge of parts to me. This is set up is longer than ideal. I see one front bearing retainer on the transmission and another in the two inch adapter plate mounted on the bell housing. This set up would end up a couple inches longer than if you had less adapters and a shorter stick out. Also kinda of doubt that CJ5 had a v6 in 1962. My bet would be it is a 1969-71 out of a truck.
     
  7. Oct 29, 2018
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Definitely a jeep BW transmission.
    this one has a very rare main drive gear, a special bearing retainer and super rare BOP adapter plate.
    So it's obviously original to either Jeep with 225 or 350 Dauntless.

    Could be a T98 or a T18 and that cannot be determined with out counting input drive teeth.
    If it was from a CJ it must be a narrow ration T18.
    If it was from a Gladiator I believe it would have a wide ratio T98

    It has a clutch control ball stud on the rear adapter plate.
    Due to cable control the clutch ball stud was not present on 1970 - 1971 CJ's.
    Of course that ball may have been added when they put it ion a 1962 CJ.

    So guessing I also lean toward Gladiator Wide Ratio T-98.
    the shift knob is wrong..
     
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  8. Oct 29, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

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    I can probably find that info on Novak...but just to ask, what are the input drive teeth numbers for t98 to t18. The seller said it would be fine to open the cover and inspect...so might as well count teeth. Also need to count teeth on first gear to determine 4:1 or 6:1. If it truly is OEM v6 - would it have been t98 or t18 (and according to novak some of the first t18s used the t98 case with stamping).
     
  9. Oct 29, 2018
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    If it has 17 drive teeth it's a wide ratio transmission. 6.398 low gear
    If it has 23 input drive teeth it's a narrow ratio transmission. 4.02 low gear
    The Gladiators would have a wide ratio T98 and the CJ would be a narrow ratio T18.

    All T98 were wide ratio at 6.398 they were never made as narrow ratio.
    So all t98's are 17 drive teeth on the maindrive gear.

    T18 can have 17 or 23 maindrive teeth. 6.32 or 4.02
    How ever WR T18 was never factory mated to a Dauntless.

    Yes In the early years T18 cases were the same as T98 so it could feasably be a NR T18.

    T98 was used on Gladiators and I think also on the very early early J trucks..
    Tim may know exactly when that change occurred but it was certainly in the very early 1970's.

    This unit is certainly pre J truck due to the Dauntless bellhousing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
    FinoCJ likes this.
  10. Oct 29, 2018
    Twin2

    Twin2 wasn't me Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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  11. Oct 29, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    This definitely appears to be the correct length and setup for a V6 T18. The 3" adapter plus the 7/8" front plate or for 1971, the one piece bellhousing and 7/8" plate called for the long input shaft. So if all you are going off of is the length alone for an assessment, that doesn't count it out.
     
  12. Oct 29, 2018
    Dauntless1971

    Dauntless1971 Member

    Bend, OR
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    So maybe the length is right for the adapter plates. And the stick out may be correct for the parts he has. But why two bearing retains? Even if it is a rare t98 transmission. You still would end up with a longer transmission assembly than using a shorter stick out version of the transmission. Maybe a couple of inches is no real concern. I have heard t98 input shafts are not available, I do not know if a t18 input shaft would work.
     
  13. Oct 29, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

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    Daryl had posted a thread on an oem v6 4speed he visited with pics....trying to find it...
    Sellers says he might also have the crossmember.
     
  14. Oct 29, 2018
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    Dauntless 1971, I fully agree with you.
    In my mind it is not the ideal way to install a long transmission into a short wheelobase CJ.
    But that's the way Kaiser wanted their front adapter plates.

    That's not two bearing retainers being used like some aftermarket adapter plates have
    Rather it is a a special front bearing retainer with additional index length.
    It is designed so it can index directly into the adapter plate bore.
    The bearing retainer tube stickout length looks to me like it may have been shortened.
    Not sure why it looks so short because it needs to be long if used with that thick adapter plate.
     
  15. Oct 29, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    I have an original with the crossmember and goofy little transmission mount. It is in a 70 so it has these adapters and a normal 70 Buick bell. Original floor cover also.
     
  16. Nov 7, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

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    Due to all the 'fun' of CL wheeling and dealing...may finally have an opportunity to see this this weekend. Currently the seller has the T98 with all the adapters and BOP bell to 225. He also supposedly has the cross-member. I am hoping he might also have the driveshafts - maybe even the floor pans, although those might not be that hard to make. Will take the top cover off and see what the inside is - assuming its in reasonable shape, what is it worth? A lot of people suggest to expect $1500-2000 for a 4 speed swap. Although I agree that this seems to have more total length than ideal - and thus shortens the rear driveshaft, it could also be a pretty feasible way to put all the pieces together for a bit less? I will have to deal with swapping the planetary gears in my OD from 10 spline to 6 spline....
     
  17. Nov 7, 2018
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs Sponsor

    At the foot of...
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    Pretty easy to do...you'll spend about $350 on that.
     
  18. Nov 8, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor Sponsor

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    If you use a later grill and move your motor mounts forward it is easy to get plenty of driveline length.
     
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  19. Nov 10, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

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    Very true - but not something I would care to do at this point.

    FWIW - after chatting with the seller a bit here is some more info - take it with your own filter of knowledge as the seller doesn't claim to know everything about it and I certainly don't either:
    The jeep has been in the family from the beginning - was an uncle of the seller. Then it went to the son (seller's cousin) before getting run into the ground and parked. The seller picked it up as he has some other jeeps that he is working on and thought it would be useful for parts (think he said it was rusted out and there was some front frame damage). As best as the seller knows and remembers, It was originally a 62 with F134/T98. At some point in the 70s (maybe early 80s) the seller recalls the swap to the 225, but seems to remember to the original t98 being kept and adapted to the 225. Not sure how they would have gotten the OEM v6-t98 adpater set-up (maybe they had a connection with a dealer or found a wrecked one?), or maybe they pulled the entire drivetrain from a wreck and swapped it. Or maybe someone was making those adapters for the aftermarket at the time. I would guess the cross-member support might be the key detail as if its from a 62 F134/T98 or homebuilt/modified vs the OEM v6/T98 crossmember (if they are even different). Not a huge issue anyway...

    Obviously something close to this v6/t98 set-up was run OEM (albeit rare) with the long length and short rear driveshaft...but was it reasonable? Additionally, the OEM set-up would have been on a stock height cj. Given that I am running a 2-3 inches of lift - that will just compound issues with the short driveshaft. For lack of a better way to put it, its doesn't seem cheap enough to pull the trigger - I am thinking more like $600-650.

    Otherwise, at the asking price of $950, I think I'd rather wait it out a bit longer (building some more cash and knowledge) and do it the best possible way even though its probably going to cost more. I do have some numbers to crunch though - as I would like to run an sm420 which is nice and short, but the D18 adapter is a bit longer - so it might not come out too much better. At T18 would also be doable - but they seem to go for a lot of money around here. The sm465 is not as ideal to me due to its size, but they are plentiful and cheap.

    Or maybe I just go and buy this...its in the same general area...
    Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
     
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  20. Nov 10, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

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    Well I actually did get to see this in person...We did not take the cover off to count gear teeth, but it does have t98-1z cast into the side of the case (and of course t98 cast into the cover although that doesn't mean much as they were also used on t18s). I am not sure I could tell the difference between a t98 used with a 4cyl vs one used with the v6 set-up. In this case, the biggest thing that caught my attention (thanks to some Novak reading research) - this t98 mates to a D18 with the smaller 3 5/32" bore, whereas my D18 is the 4" bore. Here is a pic:
    [​IMG]

    I believe all v6s came with the 4" bore D18 (1966-71) - at least all the ones with the T14/86 3 speed option. Assuming only a few ever came with t98, and that the 4cyl cjs from that time period where still running 3 5/32" D18, then this could be a T98 from 1962 or from a v6? Doesn't really matter, as for me, it can't be used with a 4" bore D18, at least not without a different adapter for the D18. It appears I could get this adapter from Novak, and even get it set-up with a 10 spline out to use with my D18, but that is a lot of money and the set-up ends up kind of long.

    Some other numbers I checked when I was there:
    The bellhousing appears to be the usual BOP v6 bellhousing (length of about 6 3/4" but with the extra support structure for the long input shaft on the transmission).
    length of the bellhousing-t98 adapter: 3.5 inches (about 0.5 inches longer than the standard 3" T14 adapter).
    Standard t98/t18 12" length plus the 1" D18 adpater for a total of 13

    That puts total OAL from the end of the BOP bellhousing to the D18 at 16.5", which almost 3.5" longer than what most people get when swapping in T18/SM465 and bolting directly to the bellhousing. For an SM420, using the Novak D18 adapter, OAL is about 15". FWIW - T14 OAL (with 3" adapter to bellhousing) is 11.75".

    For anyone that might have had a 4cyl/T90/small case D18 at one point, and is either looking to or has swapped to a v6 - this could be a pretty sweet bolt in set-up with all pieces keeping the small case D18- especially if you don't mind the few extra inches of length, or maybe have a cj6 to drop it into (maybe I should have bought it and put it on the shelf for the dream cj6 I am going to get one day). But it seems like there is no benefit if your jeep came with v6 and large case D20, and for all the usual work you end up with a bit of a long set-up.
     

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