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Pto (winch) Install - Wtf?

Discussion in 'Winches' started by PeteL, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. Nov 1, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    I'm installing a Koenig type 51 PTO in my stock 1956 CJ5, for a front winch.

    PTO gear won't engage the transfer case gears when I try to shift it. Engine running or stopped, clutch in or out, forward or reverse. Won't go into gear, period.

    Anybody have suggestions?

    Winch is not mounted yet. The PTO lever moves and I can feel the gears rubbing, but they won't mesh. I've tried installing the lever both front-ways and back-ways. Shift operated okay on the bench.

    Both PTO and transfer operate fine independently, and are both in good low-mile condition. The PTO was opened and cleaned - chain and sprockets and bearings are unworn and are very stiff, but will turn.

    I done at least two such installs in past years but don't recall any such issue. What am I missing?
    Thanks.
     
  2. Nov 1, 2018
    Jrobz23

    Jrobz23 Member

    Northern, WI
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    Same gear teeth count?
     
  3. Nov 1, 2018
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member Sponsor

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Pull the pto & check the clutch teeth on the output gear & pto input to verify nothing's been chewed up.

    The only other thing I can think of is that somehow the tranny & pto centerlines are out too far.
     
  4. Nov 1, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    I dunno - I didn't think to check.

    I had the same thought now - but original Koenig manual just says to bolt it up, no options were mentioned.

    Unit was supposedly removed from an early CJ5.
     
  5. Nov 1, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    The body was pressing down on the PTO casing, but pretty sure I bolted it up tight while I had the pressure off. I could try jacking the body again.
     
  6. Nov 1, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    So... from the photos pre-install, the PTO gear/ dog clutch is 15 teeth. Is this correct for a 1956 CJ5 transfer gear?
     
  7. Nov 1, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    To answer my own question I opened up one of my spare transfer cases. Fifteen teeth.

    Mmmmm. :shrug:
     
  8. Nov 1, 2018
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    Did you measure the amount the PTO sprocket moves forward when you shift it?
     
  9. Nov 1, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    On the bench it seemed to have a full throw. In the Jeep it's hard to say, but it seems to come up slightly short. The transfer gear is only about 3/8" deep, so that would seem consistent.
     
  10. Nov 1, 2018
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    Maybe loosen the bolts and try shifting it into gear and maybe wiggle it if you think the alignment is off?
     
  11. Nov 1, 2018
    1957Willys

    1957Willys Member

    Birmingham, Alabama
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    Is the PTO hub facing the right direction and not flipped around backwards? And is the carter pin to long that holds the castle nut to the output gear of the transmission causing the PTO hub to not mesh with the output gear?
     
  12. Nov 2, 2018
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Active Member

    Republic of Texas
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    Pete, take pics for posting as you go thru this process. pleeeeeeeeeeeease.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  13. Nov 2, 2018
    WYOMIKE

    WYOMIKE Oct 1971 pic Sponsor

    Parkman, Wyoming
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    When I sold my 48 CJ-2 and bought my 71, I un bolted my mod. 50 PTO ( 2 lever) from the CJ-2 and it bolted right up to my 71, no problems what so ever. If I remember correct the fork on the shift lever can be installed ether direction, but it will not work in one direction. It seems like to me the forks on the bottom do not point straight down, but are at a small angle and the lever has to be installed with that angle point forward.
     
  14. Nov 2, 2018
    garage gnome

    garage gnome Rust polisher Sponsor

    Western MA
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    Everything sounds like it should be working properly. I think I would take the PTO apart and check the sprockets and chain.

    Looking here, I would suspect the sprocket by the shifter is stripped on the shaft, or the bolt backed out. :shrug:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  15. Nov 2, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Concur. I'll try that when it stops raining.

    - The shift lever is indeed directional, but I've tried it both ways round.

    - I had the same thought that maybe the cotter pin is obstructing, but no way to check unless I pull the unit, and I already filled it with gear oil. :banghead:

    - The sprockets and chain seemed excellent, except very tight and taut from being unworn at all. Hard to turn by hand.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  16. Nov 2, 2018
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Active Member

    Republic of Texas
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    Pete, what I was told here when I asked what to expect, is that when the PTO cover is pulled, very little oil will come out and that the PTO is not oiled by the the TC. So how do you add oil to the PTO initially? I don't remember seeing a fill plug or do you just use one of the mounting ones?
     
  17. Nov 2, 2018
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs. Sponsor

    Happy Valley, OR
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    This. If the sleeve is facing the wrong direction it won't engage the teeth on the transfer case input gear unless lined up exactly right. There is a taper to the teeth on one side only iirc. Also check the cotter pin and the diameter of the retaining nut for the input gear. I've run into a few that had too large of a nut.
     
  18. Nov 2, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    This is how it came to me. Can you tell if it looks right?

    PTO sleeve.jpeg
     
  19. Nov 2, 2018
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    I just pumped it in thru a mount hole. Figured I'd check the TC level later, since they communicate.
     
  20. Nov 2, 2018
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    Seems to have the taper on the teeth that Nick mentioned.
     

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