My lengthy Borg warner T18 rebuild thread

OK. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Sure am glad for people who can explain how this stuff works. I'd be totally lost trying to figure it out. And thankful for the people who design the stuff. Smart cookies, for sure.

Tonights work centered on inspection of the main shaft and it's components. I'm a bit concerned about the condition of the 1st/reverse gear, 3rd, and the input shaft. Again, I may be overly concerned for a vehicle that will likely see 500-1000 miles a year at the very most. More likely, only a few hundred. I can deal with some gear noise. Things that cause jumping out of gear, shifting issues, etc., not so much. I'll go through my concerns, with pictures, one by one.

Input shaft. Pilot bushing surface looks good. Inner roller bearing surface for the main shaft appears okay. The small teeth show light wear, seen as shiny spots in the picture. The valleys in between the clutch splines are sort of bumpy but, I believe this is from the machining process. My main concern is what may be a groove where the front bearing resides. I'm thinking it's more of a shoulder, machined into the shaft. The area where the bearing actually sits seems to measure about .003 - .004 thicker than area just before it.






3rd gear. Evidence of something having gone through this gear box. All teeth have scratches/gouges on both sides (both faces, if you will). Not real deep but, I can feel them with the tip of a pick and, less so, with my finger nail. No sharp areas. All smooth but very evident. No chips. Small teeth look good with no chipping or rounding. Inside surface looks good for shaft contact. Blocking ring taper looks good. Surfaces that rides against locking ring looks good with what looks like very minimal wear. Shiny spots here, but no noticeable wear.








2nd gear. This one almost shiny spot where something went through. It feels like a flat/depressed area. Only evident on one tooth. Several teeth exhibit scratches similar to those on the 3rd gear but not as bad, and only at the outer most edges of the affected teeth. 3 or 4 teeth show these scratches. Everything else looks good. This gear looks newer than any of the others and may be a replacement.



Now for the real kicker. 1st/reverse. The rear-most vertical edges of all teeth are rounded over. Maybe to be expected with shifting into reverse? However, 4 or 5 have corner chipping on the rear vertical edge. One is fairly nasty. Inside splines look good for the clutch hub. Shift fork groove looks good but, has not been measured.







A quick look at the reverse idler shows no damage but, it will need a closer look.

I'll stop here for now, to break it up a bit. Tomorrow I will show the shift plates for the 2nd gear synchronizer, the main shaft, and discuss the rebuild kit I bought. While I fear what I think is coming, I would like to hear your opinions on the condition of these parts. My uneducated thoughts are that second and third are usable, though they may create some noise. I'm concerned about 1st. That it should be replaced which, would, I suppose mean the synchro and everything. Sounds expensive. I'd like to not have to replace it. What say the learned?

Finally, if I am too picture heavy in this thread, let me know and I'll ease up. Thank you. And, in my best Charles Emerson Winchester voice: "Gentlemeennnnn."

 

Pretty Common for that 1st/Reverse slider...........non syncro and guys just jamb it in gear before they come to a complete stop............take a die grinder or durmor with a small sanding drum and polish and smooth out the sharp edges to the leading edge of the damaged gear......don't get carried away just lightly and a quick polish and smooth job............touch up any others that have sharp edges............that gear will probably live for another day!

 

My 1st/Rev gear was worse than yours, with numerous chipped teeth. Not surprising as it came out of a plow truck and they spend a lot of time going from 1st to rev. If your damage is limited to a couple of teeth I'd agree with Tarry. I had to replace mine. Could have been a piece of that tooth that went through the tranny and left some scuff marks.

 

Input shaft seems good then?

OK. So, if can use the gears, considering the described imperfections (no one mentioned the issues with 2nd or 3rd, so they're usable?), then I'll move on to 2nd gear synchronizer and the rebuild kit I bought. I'll have to go verbal, for now, as I am experiencing some photobucket problems this evening, as others have been mentioning. I'll try to add the photos in later, for clarity.

First, the 2nd speed synchronizer. This will be tough without pictures but, here goes. It is, according to the rebuild manual, a newer style set up. There are no poppets and coil springs. Just one large spring that goes about 3/4 of the way around the hub and keeps tension on 3 shift plates. Since I can clean up and use the 1st/reverse gear, I can, and must use the matching clutch hub. The clutch hub itself appears to be in excellent condition with no signs of wear, visually or by feel. It has been thoroughly cleaned. I was amazed at how much gunk was in the grooves.



The shifting plates all show some visible wear. Shiny spots. To the touch, I can feel only the slightest amount of wear. I mean, it seems like almost nothing.



The rebuild kit. Purchased from a well known, and respected source. Not some FLAPs or cheapest I could find on epay. Only 2 concerns here. The new blocking rings seem sort of cheap-ish. Thinking or re-using the ones I took out of this transmission as they seem to show little wear. Not sure what a little, or a lot of wear, is on a blocking ring. The teeth tips are just barely rounded on the old ones, some shiny spots on their edges but, otherwise look good. Don't want to pitch good old parts for cheap-o new ones. Maybe they're not cheap-o's. I wouldn't second guess the source except for......one of the bearings in the kit is a Chinese made part. The front bearing.

The kit I was sent contains the bearings for older T18s, the front being thinner than the rear. My "newer" T18 calls for the same, thicker bearing, front and rear. So, I need to exchange the Chinese front bearing for one that matches the Niachi brand brand rear bearing that came in the kit. I am told that Niachi is a good bearing. I dunno? I'm sure the source would exchange the bearings.



I think that's it for tonight. Thoughts, opinions, advice is all welcome on all of this. Once I'm straight on the gears and shafts and bearings, I'll get into the 3-4 synchro. Then I'll get the main shaft assembly back together, set aside, and go into the bottom of the case.

 

Been busy with this for the last few days so, been away from the transmission. Blurry pic but, you get the idea. Got the windows in today, Tyvek on and started on putting the siding back on.



But, had a bit of time this evening so, I got my Dremel tool out (the same one I've had since I was like 14 or 15) and found a light grinding stone in the box. Small one so I could in to the teeth on the 1st/reverse gear and clean up the chipped teeth, as suggested. I tested the stone on an old ring gear that was living on as a weight, holding down a tarp. I wanted to make sure that the stone was hard enough to do the job but, not too aggressive. It worked out well and I got the sharp edges cleaned up. Sort of felt like I was doing dental work, I guess.

Anyway, tomorrow I'll wash the gear off and think about starting to put the main shaft back together. I still have to source another bearing and decide about the blocking rings. I'll probably use the new ones though, I still have my doubts about their quality. But, I can't say for sure that the old ones are of any better quality.

I may stick the mainshaft in the freezer for a while before trying to slide the synchronizer assembly on. It's a tight fit right now and I'd have to either hammer it on with something or take it back into work and press it back on.

 

A trick to see if the blocking rings are too worn to use. Clean them thoroughly in solvent, brake clean, etc. and let them dry thoroughly. Use a small flashlight aimed at the inside of the blocking ring. The "ridges" inside should be very sharp. Not quite enough to cut you but sharp. If the edge of the ridges reflect light from the flashlight the edges have flattened out and won't be able to cut through the oil film and grab the cone of the gear very well which means harder shifts and possible grinding.
Typically the factory blocking rings are far superior to the aftermarket replacements but if worn need replacing.

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Excellent tip. I'll check that tomorrow. I never thought about those rings on the inside and what they do. I was looking at the teeth only, which show very minor wear, as far as I can tell. The teeth on the new rings look just a tad smaller (narrower in width) to me. Though, I did not actually measure them.

 

Assembling the main shaft. The freezer trick served only to provide a nice thick coating of frost on the shaft, once removed from the freezer, and moisture as the the frost melted off. I let the shaft out in the sun to melt off and come back to ambient temperature. I then cleaned it again to remove all moisture.

So, the blocking rings. I need to tap them onto the gears as they are a tight and do not just slide onto the taper. A bit of gear oil, or petroleum jelly would help? Or should I leave them dry while tapping them into place? BTW, I'm using the new ones provided in the kit. The old ones did show dull edges, rather than very sharp ones, on the ridges as Nick described.

I put a little petroleum jelly on the thrust ring and on the inside of the 2nd gear. Should I put some in between the gear and hub of the 2nd gear synchro assembly before I put it together? How about on the splines of the shaft where the parts reside on the shaft. I want to make sure everything is lubed as it should be but, don't want it look like/become a mess.

 

Anywhere two parts move or rotate against each other lube. If they don't (like synchronizer hubs that spline on a shaft) it's unnecessary.


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Funny thing about those blocking rings. They slip right on if you have them facing the right way. Glad I didn't try to force them the wrong way. Uggg. Sometimes you just have to walk away and come back later, like around midnight, and try again. That's why I'm "beeg dummy."

I'll continue tomorrow after work with pics.

 

So, after an early morning emergency plexodectomy, I went to work and got through the day, anxiously awaiting quitting time so I could get back to this. Didn't actually get out to the garage until after 8 but, made what I will call significant progress. Here we go.........


First snap ring and the thrust ring.



2nd speed synchronizer reassembled with scribed marks properly aligned.



Retaining spring detail on the shift plates.





2nd gear, blocking ring and snap ring installed.



This is as far as the synchronizer assembly would go on without help.



While covering the back of the hub with a clean rag, I used a plastic dead blow hammer to drive the assembly the rest of the way, being careful to strike only the hub area, not the outer gear. Not the best method but, patience prevailed and now, this end of the mainshaft is assembled.



Flipped the shaft end for end and installed 3rd gear. Stopped here for the night. I've been lightly coating the inside areas of the gears with petroleum jelly, as well as the splined area between the hub and gear on the synchronizer assembly. And the shift plates. And the coned areas of the gears where the blocking rings sit.

Tomorrow evening I hope to work on the 3rd/4th synchronizer.

 

Looks great so far. I can't tell you how much you are going to love this transmission.

 

Hard to tell from my phone but is the snap ring underneath 3rd gear sitting external of the thrust washer and directly against 3rd gear? If so that's not correct. That snap ring should sit in the recess in the thrust washer for 2nd gear.


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:thumbup:

 

The snap ring is in the recess of the thrust ring. The snap ring is facing 3rd gear and the smooth side of the thrust ring is facing 2nd gear. I think it may be the camera angle, Nick but, I will double check that it is absolutely flat before continuing. I measured the snap rings and they (the old one and the new one) are of the same thickness. Thanks for the keen eye.

This shot shows the snap ring in place and the thrust washer on the shaft but not in it's position, over the snap ring. To left of the snap ring, which is the front end of the shaft, notice the machined shoulder. This shoulder is what 3rd gear is currently riding on. With the shaft on end, as in the pictures from yesterday, and the front end of the shaft up, I slid 3rd gear onto the shaft and it's flat side rests against this shoulder.


Tonight I slid 3rd back off the shaft so I could get some detailed shots of the shoulder area, snap ring and thrust washer. Below the thrust washer is 2nd gear.



Snap ring sits flush within the recess of the thrust washer. 3rd gear slides onto the shaft and rides against the shoulder machined into the shaft.



Does this look right?

 

So, I guess I'm good with the assembly, thus far. The detailed pictures above show correct assembly?

Moving on:
The disassembled 3rd/4th synchronizer. The springs have very little pressure on them, to hold the shift plates in place.



Trying to show the wear on the outer sleeve. Doesn't appear excessive to me.


The inner hub. Moving clockwise from the cutouts, the 3rd through 7th teeth show lateral wear in the form of light grooves and, some other, more vertical, damage. More evidence that something went through this trans. All other teeth show absolutely no wear, at all. These wear patterns make it very obvious why it is important to mark the parts before taking them apart.


Trying to show detail of the wear/damage to the inner hub. I hit the damaged surface of the teeth, gently, with some emory cloth, to knock off and smooth any high spots. I then washed it again to be sure to get any sanding residue off.

 

Looking good! Your assembly above us fine, I just couldn't see it from the earlier pics on my phone. Progress is being made! You'll be an expert before you know it


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A :monkeys:, maybe. I am thoroughly enjoying this, though. It's very interesting. I'd like to do more of this. Just wish I could find original B/W replacement parts, new. I suppose they are out there if one is patient and can wait for them to turn up. I find it curious that almost none of the parts are marked or stamped with a P/N. This inside hub on the 3/4 synchro is the only thing I've seen with a number on it, besides the case itself and shift tower housing.

3rd/4th synchronizer reassembled as per instructions. Make sure the retainer springs are installed correctly, following instructions.


Blocking ring and synchro installed on shaft.


Snap ring installed.


Here is the assembled main shaft. I'm calling the mainshaft reassembly complete at this point and moving to the countershaft, reverse idler and case modifications next. Mainshaft assembly is covered with a clean rag and set aside.


Looking into the case at the countershaft (the long one) and the reverse idler.


Following the instructions in the tremec manual, I tried to drive the reverse idler shaft out, after removing the shaft lock plate at the rear of the case. Hard to get a good angle on it, through the front of the case with a long punch. Seems stubborn. Another reference source says to drive the counter shaft out first. This would provide better access to the reverse idler shaft. Any reason not to try this?

 

I was able to buy original parts for my T18 from Bayshore Trucks. I don't know if they have shops on the East Coast though.

 

Wheelie, I'm so glad the harbor freight thing worked... I was worried there for a while.

I am sorry I forgot to mention the sketchiness of the puller, I figured you would take extra safety precautions. One thing I normally do is I will take a strap with no hook and wrap around the top of puller to keep the bolts together. It did fall apart on me once but with strap it just fell apart easily.

what engine are you going to mate this to by the way?