My lengthy Borg warner T18 rebuild thread

Dave , I'm not really sure what your trying to accomplish here.......but crossing some of those parts over from the Scout to the Ford Borg Warner versions may not work.

 

Depending on the resource used the big gear in the bottom if the transmission may be called a cluster gear or counter gear. Same part though. The cluster or counter shaft is the shaft that presses into the case and goes through the gear, which rides on the shaft. Just like the intermediate shaft in the 18 transfer case you just rebuilt.
The lock plate fits into the slots in the end of the countershaft and reverse idler shaft on the back of the transmission. It's stamped thick sheet metal and easy to bend or damage. Depending on who supplied the small parts kit to him will determine if it has the correct lock plate or not. Take a look and see if the one in your rebuild kit looks the same. It's easier to remove the plate if you drive the cluster shaft out a bit to take the tension off. If its tight in the reverse idler shaft slot, tap it out of the cluster shaft so it swings out of the way the. Later remove it when you remove the reverse idler gear shaft.

Terry,
The parts typically used between the two are the mainshaft and adapter. They can be used in the Ford case to convert to an 18 or 20 transfer case by drilling and tapping 6 holes and plugging the bottom left hole on the back of the Ford case.
The first/reverse slider gear can be used in both gear ratios with corresponding 2nd gear blocking ring as can the reverse idler, counter gear shaft and reverse idler shaft. depending on version the 3-4 synchronizer assembly, and various small parts can also be interchanged. I can't remember if the 2nd or 3rd gear can be interchanged off the top of my head but I want to say 2nd gear is different. The main drive gear (input) and cluster/counter gear most definitely do not interchange.


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OK. I'm with ya, Nick.

Just rereading some old stuff on this. Wanted to make sure I wasn't confusing the cluster gear with the input shaft and gear, which appear to machined as one part. Either way, I'll be using the Ford input shaft, the IH main shaft and adapter. I guess my confusion is with how I'm obtaining the 6.32 first gear vs. the 4.02 from the IH. Doesn't that come from gear (be it pressed or machined) on the input shaft? Which, BTW, the Scout input is indeed the 23 tooth variation. Just checked it.

 

Nick............Wow! I'm glad you know which parts will fit! I just don't see enough of that stuff anymore. Thanks

 

The input shaft and input gear are indeed all one piece. You will basically need to use all the gears from the Ford transmission and use the IH mainshaft and adapter. The rest if the IH transmission will be parts only. Some will interchange and some won't. Just very carefully compare them if you need parts from the IH unit. Tooth counts, width of inserts on the synchronizer assemblies, etc come into play here. The Ford with 6.32-1 first gear is 17 teeth on the input.
When you disassemble the two transmissions do NOT Mix the parts up or you will have issues when you try to assemble it. I like to use 5 gallon buckets. One transmission in one bucket, the other in another. And label them and keep them separated.


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The rear bearing came out tonight. I bought some 1/2" x 7" grade 5 bolts to use in the HF puller. The transmission sat all weekend with pressure on the bearing from the puller. Gave it a couple whacks, a couple of turns, then loosened it up, replaced the cheap bolts with the grade 5's, and started over again. The bearing started moving out of the case, then stopped and the shaft began getting pushed into the case while bearing remained in it's current location. A few cycles of tapping the mainshaft toward the rear of the transmission with a wooden block and hammer, combined with turning the puller, soon yielded success and the bearing was out.


Damage to the HF puller after it's misuse.


Mainshaft assembly on the bench.


Disassembled mainshaft.



I'll be using this mainshaft to replace the Ford mainshaft. This will provide correct length and spline count for the dana 18 transfer case.

The Tremec book says there are different mainshafts in regard to the use of snap rings or machined in retainer type areas, I think. I have to re- reread that. If that is the case, I am unclear if the gears, synchros, etc., from the Ford T18 will go on the Scout shaft or not. Nick, does this matter? Will I still use only the main shaft as you said? Just something I hadn't expected and have not mentioned yet. Wanted to bring it to light and confirm that I'm still just using the shaft itself.


I think I have the Scout T18 torn down as far as I need to. I bagged the rest of it and put it under the work bench. Next, I have to power wash the Ford t18 and begin it's tear down.

 

The gears and parts from the Ford will go on the Scout mainshaft no problem. I've done it countless times. There are some mainshafts that have the thrust for 2nd gear built as part of the shaft and some that use a snap ring on the mainshaft and a thrust washer that slips onto the mainshaft and has a recess that snap ring fits into. The mainshaft shown in your pic shows the latter style. You will need to pay attention to endplay and clearances. Changing snap rings can adjust this. There have been times I've had to use used/worn snap rings to set clearances but it normally is no problem. The T-18 is very forgiving. Do not discard ANY parts until the transmission is completed.


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Thanks, Nick. That makes me feel better. I'm keeping everything organized and will keep parts from the 2 transmissions separated. Everything is laid out in order of disassembly and, forward face of each part is face down on the table. Pictures, notes, etc.

 

No problem. When/if you disassemble the synchronizer assembly use a scribe or electric engraver to mark the sleeve and hub. That way on reassembly you will know which orientation and direction the sleeve and hub fit together. I recommend you carefully disassemble them and clean them thoroughly. You'd be amazed how much junk accumulates inside those parts. I use a very small dull screwdriver, pick, and a small wire brush to clean the splines and parts. It's important to reassemble the sleeve and hub in the same orientation as they wear together and disrupting the wear patterns can cause binding.
Glad to see you're making progress and posting pics and your experiences.
This may help people understand why it's expensive to have this type of work done.
Keep it up. You're on the right track!


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Sorry for the hiatus. Been trying to get some help huffing the Ford transmission off the garage floor, into the back of the truck, off the truck at the car wash, etc. etc., etc., and onto the work bench. I hate being a sissy but, I hate laying around with my back blown out, too. So, I think a coerced a friend to help me today. Hard to sugar coat lifting heavy, greasy things in and out of tallish trucks. I was going to resort to buying one of those bed mounted truck cranes but, couldn't bring myself to do it.
Anywho, I should be moving forward again in short order.

.................so, I got it cleaned up and on the bench. Put it in neutral and removed the shift tower. First thing I noticed as different from the Scout, is that the reverse shift arm came out with the shift tower. Guess I should have seen that coming.

So pulled the drain plug to drain the little bit of water, that got in during the wash session. I then sprayed the inside with some WD to further disperse moisture.

A quick look revealed a few other obvious differences. The 3 & 4 synchro assembly is machined differently than the Scout. Appears much heavier. And the output shaft assembly and bearing seem to move very freely in and out of the case. I can't detect, by feel, any side to side or up and down movement when it's pushed in all the way but, I am hoping this is not a sign of the case being worn too much for the rear bearing. The Scout transmission seemed very tight at the rear bearing.





And finally, I noticed 2 grooves on the outside circumference of the 3rd gear. May have issues on the faces of it's teeth as well. I'll need to look at it closer when I take it apart. The grooves around the outside almost look machined, sort of, but, I need to have a closer look.

 

The grooves around the 3rd gear are normal. They are called "witness marks" and help id the gear for pitch and what not.
Common for the 3-4 synchronizer to be slightly different as well. Look at the inserts and see if they are a different width than the one in the Scout. They may be which means it would use different blocking rings and cone size on third and fourth gear. If the inserts are the same width the assembly can be swapped between the transmissions.
Check the bore for the rear bearing carefully but If in good shape don't worry about it. Common for one transmission to have a bearing fit tighter than another. Heating and cooling cycles can distort the bore enough to make a tight fit.


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This one is coming apart much easier than the Scout unit. Bearings are not fighting me as before. I would suggest, to others, to buy a larger pair of very good quality external snap ring pliers. The one I bought from Sears (Craftsman) seem barely adequate and are uncomfortable to use. The small, thick snap rings are difficult to remove with these pliers. In fact, I ended prying the rear one off with screw drivers, after getting it started with the pliers. If I were concerned with this mainshaft, I would not have risked the possible damage that could have resulted. No damage (scratching, scarring) was done but, the potential for such damage exists, using this method.

And speaking of damage that could result. I'll take this opportunity to talk about shop safety. Now, I am usually safe in the garage. I always have safety glasses on when doing stuff like, say, prying on things. Not so today. I just didn't put them on. And I could easily have lost an eye today as, while prying the thick, small snap ring from the rear of the shaft, it broke and sailed, at high speed, across the garage. Had it flown in my direction, it may well have ended up in my eye. Felt stupid and lucky at the same time. And, note that the puller is not put together real well, either. I am stretching the limit of it's ability and should have a wider cross bar, as the threaded extensions are barely engaged. I was very careful while turning the puller, watching for movement and slippage in this area. Certainly not the correct, ideal, or safest set up.

Bearing puller engaged.



Question for the hour: Before starting to pull the bearings, I put a dot of yellow paint (to be removed after assembly) on top of each part on the main and input shafts. Just so I can line everything up while putting it back together. I have to reread but, there is mention of marking the parts, synchro assemblies I think, so that it can all go back together properly. I went an extra step and marked everything. After separating the mainshaft from the input and removing the mainshaft assembly from the case, I noticed some of the dots no longer line up (see picture below). Issue or no? I think not but, want to make sure. I think I just have to be concerned with the synchros, in regards to marking.



This input shaft has 17 teeth. Following the directions in the Tremec manual, I separated the 2 shafts while in the case (after the bearings were off), tilted the mainshaft up, inside the case, and removed. I think I can pull the input from the case in the same manner. I have not yet loosened the countershaft lock plate or driven the countershaft at all.

Getting into the meat of this now. I'm laying everything out on the bench very carefully, in order. Pictures, notes, etc. Taking a break before disassembly of the mainshaft group and pulling the rest of the guts from the case.

 

No issue. The gears rotate on the shaft so that's normal. What needs aligned is the synchronizer sleeve to the synchronizer hub when you disassemble them for inspection and cleaning. Like I mentioned above, scribe or engrave the side of the sleeve and the hub so you get them back together in the right indexing and orientation.

 

Catastrophe!!!

Disassembling the main shaft. Got the front half apart fine. Removed the rear snap ring. Went to slide the 2nd gear synchro off the shaft and it would not move. Tried again to slide it off and the sleeve separated from the rest of the synchro assembly. Of course, before I marked it. Now, I cannot slide it back together more than about 3/16 of an inch. It gets very tight and would require tapping to get it back together. I lined it back up where I think it goes, using the paint marks I made earlier but, all that stuff may have moved. I really have no way of being completely certain.

When put the sleeve in the position I think it was in, I made a paint mark on the sleeve and inner body. It would not slide back together in this position. I moved the sleeve, one tooth at a time in both directions (for about 4 or 5 teeth) and, found no spot where it slide back together. I then put it back to where I started, according to the marks, and called it a night.

I thought the synchro would slide off the shaft easily but it won't. Grrrrr.

 

The sleeve probably moved far enough for the poppet balls to pop out if place and jeep the sleeve from going back on. Not a catastrophe. You will need to pull It completely apart anyway to clean all the metal particles and sludge out of the splined areas. For reassembly, use a large it couple hose clamps to compress the poppet balls and springs. As you slide the sleeve back on you can use it to push the hose clamp(s) off and keep the poppet balls in place. I said it above and will say it again, use a scribe or engraver to mark the parts! Paint marks come off when cleaning the parts. What will you do then?


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It was my intention to mark the parts with a scribe after they came off the shaft and before cleaning. I used the paint as a temporary mark, at the onset of disassembly and, again after the sleeve separated from the hub for a temporary reference mark. Had the synchro assembly slid easily off the shaft, as it did on the other transmission, there would be no issue. However, the clutch hub of the assembly is stuck on the shaft. Lesson learned is to mark the parts before attempting to remove them from the shaft, not after. The parts will be marked with an engraving tool before taken apart for cleaning and inspection.

So, I went back out to the garage hoping to find some marks on the synchro from a previous rebuild. No such luck. I did manage to get the sleeve back over the hub in the way Nick describes. The parts seem to move freely with each other but, I still cannot be sure that they are in their original position. I zip tied them together to keep them from coming apart again while trying to remove the assembly from the shaft.

I got the assembly to move rearward enough to gain access to the locking ring (snap ring) which resides just forward of second gear. Pulled the locking ring, large washer, second gear and blocking ring off the front end of the shaft. The second gear synchro assembly remains stuck on the shaft as I cannot get the center hub to move any further.

Maybe I'll remove the zip ties, take the assembly apart, leaving just the clutch hub, and try to get that off the shaft by itself.

 

Decided, last night, that my best course of action to remove the clutch hub from the shaft, was to disassemble the synchro, on the shaft, and take the shaft and hub into work and use the press to get the hub off. So, I used an engraver to mark the parts properly at this point.(did the the 3rd/4th synchro while I was at it). This is some hard steel boys.

While taking it apart, I realized that I have the newer style synchronizer. No springs and ball poppets in this one. Just 3 shift plates and a spring that goes about 3/4 of the way around the forward face of the hub. The spring presses out on the 3 shift plates holding them against the inside of the 1st/2nd gear. Easy peasy. Best style? I dunno but, it's easy to work with. While studying this group of parts, I noticed 3 evenly spaced areas inside the gear, where grime had accumulated, or not been rubbed away. In the valleys between the teeth. This is where the shift plates reside. So, when it came apart in my hand and I tried to put it back together, when I was first trying to slide the assembly off the shaft, I was sure that it had not rotated more than a few teeth. Still not good. When I noticed the dirty areas and could confirm where the shift plates had been, I could compare that to the paint marks I put on, as a starting point reference mark to try to get it lined back up again. I had it right after all, quite by luck. Lesson learned as noted earlier. Mark the parts as soon as the main shaft assembly comes out of the case.

Anyhow, got some of the parts cleaned/degreased this evening. Tomorrow evening I'll inspect the parts more closely and, maybe start cleaning a few things up that need more attention. I'm a bit concerned about my third gear but, I'll get to that a little later. Thinking about getting the mainshaft assembly back together and ready to install before going after the countershaft and reverse in the case. Mainly to get the work bench cleared off and, so I can do it while it's fresh in what's left of my mind. Can't see a reason why this would be a problem but, I am often blind.

I made a slight attempt to slide the troublesome synchronizer hub onto the donor Scout mainshaft. I went a little bit before getting tight. I didn't try real hard to force it. Both parts had been cleaned at this point. I may have to press it on to the shaft when the time comes. I may be able to pound it on with a hammer and length of pipe but, that press sure would be the ticket, if it comes to that. It came off the other shaft with ease, using the press. I'm going to give the splines, inside, a good look for burrs. Didn't notice any on a quick look with cleaning.

Below are some pictures for parts comparison thus far.







3rd/4th synchro engraved




Third gear from each transmission side by side. Ford on the left, Scout on the right. More on this later as I was hoping these were on the "interchangeable" list.




The 2 inputs, side by side, for comparison. Scout on the left. Ford on the right.



The 2 main shafts, side by side, for comparison. Ford on the left, Scout on the right.

 

Looking good wheelie. Takes me back about ten years when I put a Ford T-18 in my Jeep. Unfortunately my tranny came out of a plow truck and 1st and rev. gears were beat. Those are very expensive gears to replace. At least 1st gear was. Are you awed by the sheer size of the parts in the T18? I sure was.

 

Yea. This thing is a monster. The main shaft seems ridiculously large, though I really have nothing to compare it to. Sort of curious to take my spent T14 apart, when this is all done and installed, just to get an idea of how huge the T18 is.

I have a concern about some of my gears as well. I will put some pics up, if I can get good ones, and ask opinions. It looks like something went through this thing and they replaced second gear (curious about the quality of the gear as I have no idea from where it may have sourced), third has some lateral,.... I'll call them scratches or gouges (which can be seen in one the earlier pics)... and, the big gear that goes around the outside of the big synchronizer (2nd gear synch.), which I believe is 1st, has some ugliness and a chip. More on that later, though. The diagrams don't really designate a 1st gear. I am assuming that 1st and reverse use the same big gear on that synch. with reverse also utilizing the "gear assembly, reverse idler."

The "gear assembly, reverse idler" looks to be in good condition, as does the countershaft.

Again, I think I will concentrate on getting the main shaft put back together before diving into the lower end stuff, unless I am advised differently.

Didn't do anything last night. 2 nights in a row of only a few hours sleep caught up with me and I crashed early. Going to the garage after dinner is done.

 

Yes the big 40 tooth straight cut gear is first and reverse and also the second gear synchronizer. When forward it engages second gear. When slid rearward it engages the counter gear for first gear. When in neutral the reverse idler gear slides forward on its shaft and engages the large gear and reverse on the counter gear. This adds another gear (reverse idler) into the equation reversing the direction if the mainshaft (output shaft).


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