First Time Driving My New To Me With Soa And 38's

So, I took the jeep out last night around the block after I finally got it running. It was my first time driving it. It may have been the most frightening experience of my life. It has no shocks yet, it has an SOA with a few additional inches of lift on 38x10.5 Super swampers. It felt as if it were going to flip over at any second around the smallest of curves. It was also rubbing extremely bad with a slight turn. It was like riding a bucking bronco that was constantly trying to run over pedestrians.

So my question is, what size tires are you guys running on your SOA and are you running an offset? I would imagine that a 33 or 35x12 or so would feel more stable with a negative offset, what are your thoughts? I was physically tired after driving a block......

 

Too much going on with a SOA install to focus on just one subject...........................No shocks are obviously a problem.

Castor , axle alignment, toe in , type of suspension leaf or coils , how the steering is set up and many more questions need to be asked and understood.

Shoot some pictures................

 

You are describing exactly why spring over on a CJ usually doesn't work well for street driving. You didn't mention if you have arched stock type springs or are running later Wrangler springs. Many have made Wrangler springs work well as soa. But since you are there, here are a few things to zero in on. Spring bushings need to be tight and in good shape. Your shackles need to be as short as possible. Shocks can really be a make or break item. If you have stock axles and 38 inch tires, turning is all but impossible. Usually 32" tires are about it with a Dana 30. 31 will actually rub on a 25.

 

Shocks are on the list, I just have no mounts yet. Its on on YJ springs with PS installed but not finished. I still have some items to fix and finish. I will post some pics this afternoon.

Its on YJ springs, has new bushings, but shackles are fairly long. It's a 30 up front and I think I want to get an additional set of rims with some smaller tires for farting around on the road and keep the 38s for the mud. Would you think that I can fit a 33 with an offset or spacers? I will post some pics this afternoon.


Thanks for the reply guys!

 

I agree that pics would help quite a bit and that extreme caution is advised with SOA on CJ's. That being said, here's a few thoughts regarding your post for you to take or leave.
1. Shocks - Lack of shocks certainly makes a big impact with bouncing (compression and rebound). While building my Jeep, I hauled it once on a car trailer sans shocks and the suspension bounced like crazy. It was very surprising. However, even the best shocks will not correct or mask severe body roll issues related to a more foundational suspension design issue.
2. Wrangler Springs - The narrow frame design of CJ's makers them inherently more susceptible to body roll than Wranglers. I have a sprung under Jeep with OME YJ spring packs. Even being sprung under, I experienced dangerous amounts of body roll with the YJ packs until I added a couple more leafs to each of the packs. It was really bad! Adding the leafs made a huge difference. Do you have traditional YJ spiring packs or did you have spring packs that were designed to be sprung over? By far, the best spring packs for SOA that I've seen are these from Rubicon Express Rubicon Express RE1445 6 Leaf 1.5" Extreme-Duty™ Spring-over Leaf Spring for 87-95 Jeep® Wrangler YJ. You'll notice that these springs were designed as SOA; to the point where each of the eye holes around each bushing has a curvature that is reversed from a traditional spring pack.
3. SOA - I have seen SOA set-ups work beautifully on a couple of YJ's, though it's rare. I have seen many more that are flat out scary. I've never seen SOA with stock axles on a CJ that works well. SOA is an easy lift, but it creates inherent body roll, axle wrap, and steering issues. The corrections to each of these problems need to be well-planned and executed. I wonder if this is what you're experiencing now, though I do not know.
4. Wheel Spacers - I would highly recommend a quality set of spacers such as Spidertrax or equivalent if your axles are currently stock CJ-width. There's plenty of debate an the interwebs regarding spacers, though much of it from people who aren't mathematicians or engineers. A quality set of wheel spacers is negligeably different than running wheels which would have the same backspacing as the spacer. I've run quality 2" spacers for quite a while with no negative impact. 2" spacers put a CJ at about the same width as a YJ. I'm certain I would've tipped over by now without the spacers. I would like to have even wider axles then what I have now with the spacers; and I'm only sprung under on 35's! I would imagine that sprung over on 38's should require YJ-width to full-width axles to be safe.
5. Steering - CJ's already tend to be a bit of a handful as the steering is engineered from Toledo. Even sprung under CJ's require a lot of attention here. Most people who use their CJ's on the trail have added braces, steering box mounts, and upgraded tie rod and drag link. With SOA, this is even more difficult and also much more important. This is where pics would help. What did you do to get the steering geometry correct, as well as the strength up to par for 38's?

Good luck, and I hope that you get it all figured out.

 

depends on the nut behind the steering wheel. i've put 15 years of wheeling my cj with 33s and 34s on my stock d30.

 

FIFY.

 

Had a Stock 57 Wagon with a SOA and it was easily the most dangerous vehicle I ever drove on the road. going over a set of railroad tracks at 55 could put you anywhere it wanted on the other side. It was a night mare to drive. Luckily when it rolled I only spent 4 days in the hospital and 6 weeks on crutches. The good new is I made money parting it out.

 

I am running 35/12.50's on a D30 and a D44 with a full float conversion. I run no spacers. It doesn't turn short and its not at all ideal. I have spring under 4" wrangler springs.

The first thing you need to do is get some shocks and bolt them on. It will make a world of difference. Make sure you finish the steering and assure that al the components are new or in great condition. Shorter shackles will likely help out your body roll issues.

Honestly, in my opinion, 38s are probably too big of a tire. But thats me. If I were to go spring over suspension I would go with stock wrangler almost flat springs. That gives you about 4" of lift. That would give you the ability to probably run 35's and almost certainly 33's. Still wont turn short unless you get spacers.

I had some serious control issues when I first built my jeep. Its dangerous. I decided i was going to fix it once and for all. I tossed my D25 and completely rebuilt my D30 and all steering components,( ball joints and tie rod ends) bought a reman steering gear and set my caster to 7 degrees. I also drive my jeep in modern city traffic on the regular. It has to be semi modern to keep me and my sons safe when we are out. A surprise steering issue will make me dead or way worse, someone else.

 

Wow. Thats a hard lesson to learn. Glad you made it.

 

Sorry guys, it was raining again here in Louisiana yesterday and I was unable to post some pics. I will be doing that today as the weather should be better. In Regards to CJCreaper, I believe it has the stock YJ springs and I will check out the RE springs.

The springs are pretty flat. I found these pics I apparently took when thinking about shock mounts. There are no lower mounts and I am going to get with a buddy to weld on some tabs in the next week or so. Anyway, from the pics it looks like the springs have very little curvature.

 

That was just referring to hitting the springs at full turn. Nothing to do with the strength of the axle.

 

I would'n run a SOA with 38" inch tire on a cj....i would be afraid to drive it and to trail with it.

A cj5 with his stock axle i would run more than 33" with the equivalent lift for the tire.

I run 36" tsl tire but i'm running dana 44 from a scout that have a 58.5" Wms. Oem axle are about 53" wms.

 

I run a Wrangler SOA setup on my 3B. I took measures to get as little lift as possible out if it. 33s fit comfortably. I built it to race, but it was my daily driver for a few years. I never had any complaints about its road manners. It actually handled a bit better than my stock-ish '70 on the same tires.

Because I built it as a racer, I ran two RS5000 shocks at each corner. Soft springs with high damping was the ticket for the type of racing I did. I recently took it down to a single shock at each corner, and a quick trip on the road left me amazed at the difference it made (for the worse). At least one sway bar would be mandatory to be a realistic street vehicle with single shocks. I can't imagine how bad it would feel (or dangerous it would be) with no shocks.

33s are just about the limit these things can handle without major upgrades to the frames, too. 38s (even just in straight-line mud runs) are going to put insane amounts of strain on the frame and crossmembers. I see cracks in the bracket welded to the left front frame horn... if that is part of the steering box mount, fix it and get it supported better than it obviously is.

Have a plan, and above all else, be safe.
Good luck.

 

Interesting choice of words, considering the day. Indeed, be safe.

 

I have a few pics for you guys of the shackles and front end. I'm also concerned about the placement of one of the u bolts on the axle. Im also a little confused about the power steering. Do I just need to hook the lines from the pump to the reservoir? If so whats in and out? I have no idea what the pump is from, couldnt find any numbers on it.




This is the Ubolt plaement I was concerned about. It almost seems as if the ax

 

Based on the last photo.............it looks as if your power steering is still non-operational? also in the first photo of this set , the position of the Pittman arm when the wheels are dead ahead straight forward .......the Pittman arm should point rearward parallel to the frame rails or straight back............as that gear box is designed to be centered and has a sweet spot in the middle so that you have equal movement in turns either to Left or Right....................in order to fix that you may have to file the one blank key / tooth in the Pittman arm that allows the arm to be installed in the right position............your box would also have to be centered in turns L or R....................in another picture it almost seems as if your springs may be not mounted flat and perhaps are angled a few degrees up / down vs the ground..

I would also jack that up and put it on jack stands on a level piece of concrete, pull the wheels and tires off and first check the Caster in degrees on the front axle as it looks from your pictures to be more straight up vs leaning back 5 degrees or so, although pictures are deceptive..............I would also once it's up on stands pull some string lines front and rear to see if the rear and front axles are in alignment as far as both going straight or parallel .........I would also pull a tape measure in a cross like X pattern under the chassis from side to side to see if the chassis is somehow bent ..............and get the shocks back on as they will also help!

 

I don't think any of what you have posted looks terrible. Its jacked up real high though and thats going to have body roll. Also I don't believe those tires are radials but bias ply. Bias ply tires with big lug treads are going to wander like you would never experience with any modern radial truck or car tires.

Shocks first. Seriously.

The Ubolt you're concerned about is mounted the only way it fits. The tie rod end on the pitman arm should be replaced as the dust boot is torn. Unless you put it on recently, you have no idea how old or worn it is. I would replace all of them.

Jack the front end up and pull on the tires from top to bottom. If you have play your ball joints are bad. side to side, your tire rod ends are bad. Thats assuming your wheel bearings aren't destroyed. Get someone up in the seat and turn the wheel to see where the play is before the tires turn. Get rid of the slop.

The way to check caster is best way to check and set caster Fixing it if its wrong is a big job if you don't own a welder, but can solve your issue.

The P/S has a pressure line and a return. The return uses hose clamps to attach. The Pressure side probably uses inverted flare, but can also be the type with an Oring. You're going to need to figure that out. The 2 hoses on the steering box are different sized fittings, so its hard to mess up. As Tarry stated, if the pitman arm isn't facing directly backward you're going to need to reclock it to do so. There are splines that set it only one way generally and if you need to change it, there are 1 or more double splines that you will need to file in a spline to make this happen. I did it with a small triangle file to do mine.

I think you can make this work, but remember, no matter what you do, its a jeep. Its going to ride rough and with all that lift and sprung over, its going to have issues you will have to deal with.

Buy a cheap mig welder, a grinder, 3 flap disks, 2 hard wheels and a pack of cut off wheels. Buy GOOD brands that cost more. Learn how to do basic welding one afternoon and weld on your shock mounts. Do it today. Hobart is a fine starter brand from a place like tractor supply. If you like it and outgrow it sell it to your buddy.

 

Honestly it sounds like you're excited to get to drive your Jeep so you took it around the block to get a feel for it and it (rightfully so) scared the doodoo out of you. Honestly, Ive done it myself. I got the same reaction. Not a good idea depending on how far along you are in your project but it feeds the motivation to finish.
All of the advice you've gotten so far is good.
You've never stated what your intended usage is going to be for your rig. That should be the first step, and then work toward that. It appears you're going for more of a trail rig given the SOA and 38's. Cool. Get some shocks on it. Don't expect it to handle without shocks to handle the spring movement.
Fix the PS.
If I may respectfully offer an opinion- I am personally not a fan of a spring over on a CJ5, particularly with stock width axles. I know that there are those that have done it, but you have to be willing to live with the handling differences.
CJ5's are short and narrow. Lift them too much and stability suffers. It's all about CENTER of GRAVITY. Any time you lift something you are lifting the center of gravity as well and if you don't compensate for the lift by going wider at the same time your lateral stability (as in side to side) goes out the window.
With SOA and 38's just driving on a flat street is going to be unstable, even with shocks; forget about trail use. The increased lift magnifies body roll and and invites vehicle rollover. If you're set on the amount of lift you have, do it right and get some wider axles, or go with less lift and a smaller tire to maintain some level of stability and handling.

FWIW,
Mike