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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Aug 20, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Everything put back together and it started up and runs! No fuel leaks.
    Before:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    After:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Now on to the next problem...generator was smoking and sizzling after running for a few minutes and got very hot. Had to disconnect the battery to stop current from flowing even with ignition switch off....
     
    Muzikp likes this.
  2. Aug 21, 2019
    jeep peep69

    jeep peep69 Sponsor Sponsor

    redding ca.
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    Voltage regulator or the brushes in the generator are bad . Good time to upgrade to a 10 I alternator.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  3. Aug 21, 2019
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

    Sedalia MO.
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    268
    I had to use a solid base gasket. my 85 manifold had a narrower surface than the carb, allowing the heat passage to be exposed. Big vacuum leak.
     
  4. Aug 21, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Think I will try and put in a 60 amp 10SI 3-wire...1 wires are very simple to connect, but I like some of the advantages of the 3-wire, like having the charging light on the dash cluster - and I will probably eventually swap out the aux ammeter installed by the PO for a voltmeter. This is how I did it on the cj5, but it was replacing the OEM motorola alternator....so not sure if replacing the generator is quite the same. Anything I should be worried about? Hopefully I can use the same mounting bracket for the alternator as is used for the generator, and I will have to revisit how to redo the wiring (MAD electrical helped a lot last time).
     
  5. Aug 21, 2019
    jeep peep69

    jeep peep69 Sponsor Sponsor

    redding ca.
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    Switching to a 3 wire is also a good swap. the gen bracket should work it may require a little modification.any internal regulated alternator will eliminate a bunch of wire and clutter under the hood.
     
  6. Aug 22, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
    Joined:
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    Doing some more research on generator and alternator options for the sbc...It currently has a generator (with external regulator) and an ammeter, so thought I should make sure to understand how that system is supposed to work. Thought this was a pretty good description:

    In a recent discussion I had with M.A.D. Enterprises’ electrical wizard Mark Hamilton concerning the proper care and feeding of ammeters installed in classic musclecars, he pointed out that when old cars still used old-fashioned generators to charge-up the battery, ammeters did a pretty good job monitoring the electrical system. With their limited duty-cycle, old-school generators couldn’t stand the abuse of prolonged battery-recharging over an extended time-period. A generator’s heavy windings were soldered onto the segments of the armature commutator where the brushes pick up the power and send it out from the armature terminal. Generators forced to produce high power over an extended time period constantly charging a weak battery overheated, melting the rotating armature’s soldered joints. Centrifugal force from the rotating armature “threw the solder” from the armature, resulting in generator failure. With a dash-mounted ammeter, the driver would see a constant high battery recharge rate and know that the generator wouldn’t be able to put up with this condition much longer.

    That old generator system’s regulator also had a voltage limiter, a current limiter, and a cut-out relay that disconnected the generator from the battery system at shutdown. If the current limiter malfunctioned and allowed too high an output rate, once again the generator’s armature overheated and threw the solder. If the cut-out relay stuck when shutting-down the engine, the ammeter went to extreme discharge (better get that battery disconnected before a fire starts). In this type of system, a dash-mounted ammeter could easily pick up a constant battery charge rate or an impending catastrophic failure scenario.

    I haven't taken the current generator apart, but my interpretation of what was happening is exactly what is stated above...when the engine was running, the amp gauge was reading close to 30A, which would mean the battery was low and the generator was charging the battery with near max capacity of current. When I shut the engine off, the generator was smoking and you could hear 'sizzling' inside of it. Checking the amp gauge it now (with engine and key off) showed -20A or so, meaning current was discharging from the battery (probably due to the VR 'cut-out' relay not functioning properly). Guessing the sizzling sound was the melting solder....I may try to take the unit to a local shop to be investigated, but seems as though I have a concern about both the VR and the generator.

    As a side note - I learned some new things about ammeters in auto applications. I have run a voltmeter in my cj5 almost since I got (plus dummy light), so needed a bit of a lesson in how the ammeter works. From my physicas and circuits background, I think of an ammeter as being used to measure the amount of current - often based on the loads and supplied voltage. But in these car applications, the ammeter is more about the flow of current from the generator to the battery and not about the current flowing out to the loads (such as radio, lights etc). Of course, if the loads are drawing down the battery, then the generator will supply more current to the battery, but having a low amp reading is normal operation with a good battery, and having a high amp reading is a concern about the condition of the battery and not necessarily reflection of how much current is needed by auxiliary loads. Think I like the dummy charge light and voltmeter set-up better, but I am certainly more familiar with it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    Lee Bennett likes this.
  7. Aug 23, 2019
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    At the foot of...
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    Ammeters are also a fire hazard...all the current has to go through them. I almost burned a 65 GTO to the ground when the ammeter shorted out :(
    A voltmeter is a better choice, 12-14V running, everything's good, under 12, time to be concerned. Easy to hook up and less risk of problems.
     
    Lee Bennett likes this.
  8. Aug 23, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Yup....in the long run it will probably get an internally regulated alternator and a volt meter (just like I have on the cj)....For now, I took the generator and VR to a local, old school starter/alternator shop. From a quick look form the outside, he thought it was mostly like a sticky relay in the VR that wasn't shutting off the circuit correctly and thus I was getting the reverse current flow (battery discharge). Its hard to tell from the outside if it got too hot to melt out the solder or damaged the commutator or armature, but looking into it with a flashlight he figured at least one of the brushes showed some damage and the general age and years of non-use suggested it could use some cleaning-up and rebuild with new bearings and brushes etc. I could probably buy a NAPA replacement generator for the same price ($80 not including a possible armature replacement), but hopefully this will be higher quality...He figures the VR just needs some cleaning and a bit of love, otherwise its buy a new one from NAPA ($50). So, we'll see how this works out...I can buy a 10SI for equal or less money and do a bit of rewiring, but I don't want to change too much right now. Its certainly not original with the engine swap, but I also don't have a good handle on what is there and how well it works. I told my wife I am taking some of these expenses out of my winter ski equipment budget...
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    Lee Bennett likes this.
  9. Aug 23, 2019
    dane71

    dane71 Member 2019 Sponsor

    USA
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    Yeah id get it rebuilt and go from there. Theres a local shop here that does rebuilds for that kind of stuff, I'd imagine they do better than some random far away sweatshop and its cool you can actually talk to the owner if you have an issue.
     
    desertsled likes this.
  10. Aug 23, 2019
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe pusher

    Maryland
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    I've had zero luck with flaps replacement parts of late. If you got an old school rebuilder it's worth the coin to not have the aggravation of repeat trips.
     
    Glenn likes this.
  11. Aug 27, 2019
    masscj2a

    masscj2a Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Chester Mass
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    James just swapped out my generator and voltage regulator in the 3b. Yanked it out still all wired together. Installed the 94 amp alternator and volt gauge in the dash. I also did the excited light in the dash. There was an empty hole, so I figured I'd put the light there, plus I like seeing it come on at start up. Everything works great.
     
  12. Aug 27, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Installed the rebuilt generator and VR checked out ok
    [​IMG]

    while waiting for the generator I changed all fluids, added lube to the knuckles and tried to clean up the dualmatic hubs. Got it started up and drove it around the neighborhood....found one of my fuel line connections was leaking...but using the loosen and retighten the flare fitting technique seems to have worked. The bigger issue is the very leaky oil cartridge canister...is there anyway to get these to seal?...I replaced the gasket but it's tiny and doesn't really fit...the PO had used a bunch of RTV to attempt to seal it....also need to learn to tune the quadrajet a bit more....
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    Muzikp likes this.
  13. Aug 27, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    For the oil cannister buying some good gasket material and cutting one to fit is your best bet. The new ones are generally not wide enough so they don't seal....as you have found out.
     
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  14. Aug 27, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  15. Aug 28, 2019
    45es

    45es Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    FinoCJ likes this.
  16. Aug 28, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    The correct size should actually stay compressed/stuffed into the top. The outer diameter needs to be a snug fit.
     
  17. Aug 28, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    agreed...but the replacements do not stay in place as they are not wide enough to stay in the upper housing. I tried useing a bit of gasket tack to hold it place up top, but I don't think it stayed lined up correctly and the canister has some wiggle room until it gets tightened down a bit. Looks like the PO used a bunch of RTV to try and hold it in place. Basically, its a cheap and useless gasket for this application...Time to make my own full width gasket....
     
  18. Aug 28, 2019
    45es

    45es Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    James, you may want to read through the attached thread if for no other reason, than to assure yourself that you have not fallen into the same trap others have.

    Can't get my oil filter to seal (283)
     
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  19. Aug 28, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    OK - took the oil cartridge off and found the gasket was out of whack in one spot...its really hard to get a picture of this, but you can kind of see in the area where the red mark is on the housing (and the light glare) that the rim of the cartridge caught the outside edge and rolled it over a 1/4 of a turn....
    [​IMG]

    When I pulled it all the way out, you could see the impression of the short section that was not properly seated against the top rim of the cartridge. Got it cleaned up and re-installed and it 'seems' to be holding oil after a short drive. fingers crossed, but it was fun to get up to 3rd gear in it. It rides all smooth and cruisy...the hood feels like it sticks way out there in front... The T90 really has a different shift throw/feel than the T14....Its much shorter between gears. The PS is almost too sensitive....brakes are ok for now, and the clutch works (although I will eventually show you a picture of the cable linkage and fork set-up....not sure about it)

    I think this leaky oil cartridge is one of the main the sources of all the oil/grease/dirt mix that is coating most of the underside (guessing the D18 is the other)...I kind of figured in the rural area the jeep was previously, that someone drove on a muddy dirt road that had recently been oiled....in either case, I have been doing a lot of scraping of gunk off the bottom drivetrain just to get to drain and fill plugs etc....I found the rear differential tag when changing the fluid...I didn't pull the cover to inspect when changing the fluid, but if in original condition, 47/11 means 4.27 gears. I did a quick test when both wheels were up in the air and it an open differential...
    [​IMG]

    Last question...anybody know about his horn? original? its not wired in so don't know what it sounds like....my FSM is in the mail - whoops, it just arrived!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
    Muzikp likes this.
  20. Aug 28, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    It's not a beep beep type noise. Mine is closer to a regular car horn noise. Your horn looks similar to mine.
     
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