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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Nov 10, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    this is the reason I bought it, along with the sbc swap already done...the sbc has been a learning process, but the rust free (relatively speaking) aspect means it has lots of potential to make it nice....we'll see if it ever gets there, but at least it made it to FLAPS and home nicely today (only about a 2mi roundtrip), but it made it with no issues, ran nice, and I got to feel a little bit of the v8 power finally. The counter help at FLAPS also appreciated it a bit....
     
    Jw60 and baldjosh like this.
  2. Nov 17, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    After a couple more errand running test drives, I took the Willys on a 30 mile trip up the interstate with a load of tools to help a friend work on his jeep (replace the upper control arms). Overall it ran fine and and came home nicely as well. It is leaking quite a bit of oil, so have to check that out...on the way home I got stuck in a 10 min backup and sitting in traffic the temp climbed from 190 to 230, so fan shroud is still priority, but temps went right back to 190 when cruising at speed again. I installed a cheap tach and hose clamped it to steering column so I could monitor basic rpm when interstate cruising...as expected with 28" tires, 3speed t90 and 4.27 gears, 60mph cruising is just about 3000 rpm. Whaddaya you all think...I feel 3000 rpm is kind of as much as I want to consistently push the rpms at highway cruise.

    In the long run pushing the tire size up will help and maybe an OD. I want to be able to cruise at 65mph comfortably. I'd love to run 16" wheels with 235/85/16 tires, but that is a lot of expense for new tires, wheels and suspension work. There is a set of 30x9.5R15 AT tires that I am thinking of grabbing...that size should fit as is, is a better tire for my use, and will help the rpm as well....I would be at 2760 rpm for 60mph, and 3100 for 65mph...not ideal, but doable? The 9.5" width is not ideal, but is only a 1/2" wider than the 225s on there now.
     
  3. Nov 17, 2019
    Dphillip

    Dphillip Member 2020 Sponsor

    Omaha NE
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    My opinion:
    Regarding the RPM’s I think much depends how much 65 MPH miles you plan on driving. If your only traveling short distances 3000 RPM seems fine but longer trips will really consume the gas at those revolutions in addition to greater wear on the engine. On my 51 Willy’s pickup I ran 30 inch tires with 4.11 gears and the tires looked very proportional to the truck. Maybe some nice riding 30 inch SUV tires might be a idea?
     
  4. Nov 17, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    To me an O.D. would be the most important addition. If you don't want to spend the money on it yet then consider the fact that you don't really need to drive 65 mph, and buying different tires for temporary might not necessarily help that much anyway. Also, have you taken a tape measure to the tires you have? Seems to me they looked taller than 28".
     
  5. Nov 17, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    no...but I'd like to...
    I can't go anywhere around here without an hour drive on the interstate...we don't really have easy cruising 'backroads' anywhere around the Denver metro. I drove my 60 miles on the interstate yesterday doing 60 in the right lane....Its fine...65 would be better especially with lower rpm....
    An OD is definitely the best solution...its just a matter of what way to go about it...The warn OD is great as long as I keep the t90/d18 combo. If I truly build it the way I want, it gets a 4speed auto with OD, and then I don't want to spend the money on the Warn OD for limited years use. Honestly, it may never get built the way I want...mostly thinking aloud....its kind of tough as some of these decisions have a lot of later, down the road, ramifications. I am starting to default to just make it really driveable as is and forego the build ideas....A WarnOD on the D18 is something I know how to do whereas swapping out to an 700R4 auto is more complex and intimidating....
    The 225/75/15 tires currently on it measure less than 28" diameter. Of course they are a bit squished as they have load on them, and the 8" wide rim also keeps the diameter to a minimum....they just look to fill up the wheel wells with the 8" wide white wagon rims and the sagging suspension. I don't really know much about the current tires...They are Goodyear s4s with a 3 number DOT production date code of 040....so that would mean at the newest, they were made in Jan of 1990....but guess its possible they could have been made in Jan of 1980...Starting in 2000 all DOT date codes went to 4 numbers. Tread depth is fine - they haven't seen many miles - and there isn't much in the way of dry rot or cracking. But still, kind of feeling like with 29 year old tires, I will be replacing them 'sooner rather than later.' Like it or not, around here, its a lot of high speed highway driving to get anywhere, so its hard to baby the tires. Going to a newer 30x9.5 AT tire (as compared to 16' wheels and new tires and suspension) would allow for more budget to work on the other aspects like the wiper conversion, dual brake MC, etc. The 30x9.5 are some take-offs from a friend with a jeep who was going bigger - so the price is right for a small upgrade in tire quality and size, and would also allow for a small improvement in cruising rpm as a side benefit. Oh, and although completely aesthetic - I really don't like the white wall stripe...

    I did really enjoy how nice it was to cruise on the highway...the power steering seems a bit too 'strong'...in other words the steering effort is extremely low, and it almost feels too easy or 'mushy' - kind of what I think an old, big boat cruising Caddilac would feel. I would prefer a bit more resistance or road feel...might be able to help improve that with caster adjustment (leaf spring shims). Maybe because of the swapped steering column or because the old bench seat is well worn and feels a bit like a recliner, I feel like have to sit pretty far forward to comfortably use the wheel, but then my legs are too close to the pedals - the gas pedal in particular just felt awkward after a while and my right leg was cramping up in that position. More supportive seat back would certainly help, maybe putting spacer under the rear seat bracket to bring the back position more upright would help...allow me to reach the wheel but slide the seat back for leg position. I also got used to the floor mounted CJ foot pedal where you can rest and stablilize your entire foot on the pedal...the wagon pedal is floor mounted, but its super soft and any weight from my foot causes it to accelerate. So maybe a bit stiffer throttle spring so its a bit less sensitive and bit easier to find a sweet spot with my foot/ankle, hopefully without affecting the carb (could try to add a dashpot). I feel like I have to hold the end of my foot up off the pedal continuously - again mostly because I am really close to the pedals to reach the steering wheel.

    And although it has nothing to do with this...other than it was a great reason to take the Willys on the road: These are the upper control arms we replaced on a friends LJ...they were the oem, flimsy, stamped metal...they aren't supposed to have to take to much lateral loads etc, but still, this happened somehow happened....
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Nov 17, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    Well, those tires do sound a bit old. :)
     
  7. Nov 17, 2019
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

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    o_O Wow!
     
  8. Nov 17, 2019
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

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    FWIW...I don't think I'd run a T90/D18/overdrive in a Willys wagon. It's a great thing to have in a CJ because you get all those gear combinations in a short package, but for a long wheelbase vehicle I'd use a more modern transmission.
    For my son's Willys pickup we're just going to use a more highway friendly gear ratio and have a granny four speed.
     
    45es likes this.
  9. Nov 18, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    For now, I'd just run things as you have it now, except the tires. If your running 60-65 mph, please get some fresh tires!
    Being that you are running a 283, 3500 rpm is nothing for that. The short stroke engine is rev-friendly.
    -Donny
     
    47v6 likes this.
  10. Nov 18, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    To get an accurate measurement of the tire diameter you need to measure horizontally.
     
  11. Nov 19, 2019
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2020 Sponsor

    Washington DC.
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    I have said about a thousand times how much I love my PS/PB. Get rid of those tires and slap on some new ones. I read here that tires have a limited life span regardless of tread wear.

    At some point I have had to realize that until I break something, I may never replace it. If your 283 explodes at 4K for an hour, Its meant to be replaced. When it does, if ever, I would think about a full drivetrain replacement. Until then, drive it on those new 31 or 33" tires you're going to buy. Maybe add a leaf to torture yourself a bit. Buy a AAA geico or similar membership and throw caution to the wind.

    I pull like 3K or thereabouts at 60~65 with my 225/sm420/d18 and 5.38 gears on 35's... I never need an overdrive until I get to about 60 which is infrequent. I drive almost exclusively in city traffic. I was sure I wanted an automatic with OD.. But I already have that in my truck. I realized I really like rowing through the gears and I WANT an overdrive so I can have more gear shifters, if for no other reason.

    You can always do burnouts if you're too frugal to buy new tires and maybe in the process explode your engine or transmission and force your own hand. Sometimes I have to do this to make myself do the right thing, because, "its not completely used up yet".
     
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  12. Nov 19, 2019
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

    Sedalia MO.
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    I've tried that and found myself at the dragstrip in a Plymouth Sundance that didn't pass inspection due to body rot.

    My college roommate has a 57 bel air wagon, and his dad had a 67 vette 327 in it. He wouldn't shift till 8k and it was stock. (Went lq for fuel injection and more power) My 4.3 is limited to about 5500 by its 2 main oil galleys. Those small journal v8s which all have 3 main oil galleys are very forgiving. It's your ears that will hurt. You can also buy a lot of gas for the cost of an Overdrive.
     
  13. Dec 16, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    So trying to put together a plan and a budget for next phase of the wagon - the first phase was just to get it running. Now what is next? Kind of thinking of this...

    Step 1: install a custom/universal radiator fan shroud to help with cooling when sitting in traffic on warm days. Trying to decide what is the best option (other than an electric fan mounted on the radiator due to limited electric system). These might not be the exact specific dimensions I need, but the style is the question, and I need to cover some significant gap between the fan and radiator (fan already has a small spacer and radiator is set back from grill as well).
    This one is simple(?) and cheap and has a full 5" of depth: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-4358
    This one is a bit more complete (full shroud): https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...MIneHFrr275gIVx8DACh0I4wuDEAQYAyABEgIyCvD_BwE

    Step 2: of the plan is to replace the brake MC with a dual res set-up. I am thinking the Willwood set-up from R&P is a good way to go. Richard has it set-up with a bracket that mounts the cylinder in the OEM location on the frame so it works directly with the OEM through the floor pedals, but has a remote reservoir that mounts up on the fender/firewall so its easy to check and fill. There is no inspection plate in the floorboard like on cjs so this seems like a good way to go. Price is $300 +$20 shipping which makes it comparable, if not cheaper, than common set-up found at KW and the like.

    I could stop here for a bit...the current Wagner brakes do work fine...but thinking if going through the hassle of swapping out the MC, and probably inspecting brake lines that may need some attention....

    Step 3: to convert the front brakes to discs and the rear brakes to 11" self adjusting bendix style. I have a set of the backing plates needed for this (thanks to a member here) that I was thinking would go on the rear of the cj5, but think this would be a better use of them. Again, R&P has a set-up for the front discs - its their old 1/4 ton disc brake kit - I believe it uses suzuki rotors and mounting plates/brackets, and you self source the calipers and pads from FLAPS. A 2lbs RPV is needed to be placed in the front brake line as well. This kit is $350 (iirc) +$20 shipping, but you have to add in some additional cost for calipers and pads etc.
    But...I think the current Wagner rear brakes have a parking brake built in? Can I run that with the Bendix style, or do I have to go to a D18 mounted parking drum?

    I think at that point, it would be really driveable for awhile - although new lift springs and wheels would be next. What am I missing? I do need to figure out the windshield wipers, but that is probably the electric motor conversion....
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
  14. Dec 16, 2019
    jeep peep69

    jeep peep69 Sponsor

    redding ca.
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    You can use the 11 inch bendix brakes with an emergency brake you may need to source the lever for it . As an afterthought I believe only if the backing plates are off of a rear axle .
     
  15. Dec 17, 2019
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

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    I would do step 2 as #1, only because twice I have experienced a total brake loss in a single master cylinder vehicle...makes me very leery of the old single bowl systems.
    Regarding the cooling system, I'd get a good fan & fab a decent shroud, that may be all you need.
     
  16. Dec 17, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    I've put a lot of highway miles on Willys Wagons running stock brakes in the past. They already have 11" drums all the way around and stop well if things are in good shape. I would think about a dual circuit master cylinder though.
    I would cruise at 65-70 with a 283 out on the interstate with 235/75-15 tires (about 28") on 4.27 axles. It was a very good overall combination. The engine was running upwards of 3500 rpm, but thats not anything for short stroke engines. Remember, anything over about 31" tires starts pushing the limits of the stock 2-piece rear axles. I have sheared the key at the hub before.
    Use and enjoy your Wagon for what it is, just remember its not a modern truck!
    -Donny
     
  17. Dec 17, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    I agree, stock wagon brakes in good condition work way better than people give them credit for.
     
  18. Dec 17, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Thanks - I needed at little time and feedback to kind of think that through.
    I like the 6 blade fan on my cj5 - while its not ideal that I don't have a shroud for it, it has worked fined without a shroud on the 225 - will have to see if I can get a similar one for the wagon. The fan to radiator gap is much larger on the wagon and its never going to cool properly at slow speed without a shroud.
    [​IMG]
    Its cheaper and easier for me to buy one of the 'universal' aluminum fan shrouds linked above than make my own completely from scratch. Those universals ones still require some work though...This is kind of priority #1 as right now I am still a bit limited in driving in any kind of stop and go city traffic...Its fine at normal red lights etc...but you know what the interstate and highways get like around here when they jam up....plus, if this is a good solution for the wagon, I might try a similar set-up on the cj.

    Priority 2 for this spring will be the dual MC with remote reservoir...Richard at R&P discussed the simple changes that would be needed at a later point if I then wanted to swap over to discs (mostly removal of a rubber piece from the cylinder and addition of RPV in the brake line just outside of the cylinder)...I have no issues with the stopping power of 11" drum brakes (currently they are fine on the wagon, and I run the bendix style on the front of the cj), but I just don't like having to deal with the manual shoe adjustment - I really like the self-adjusters on the bendix style. But that is a small hassle in reality...and the option to upgrade the brakes at a later point is there. In terms of driveability it will get me where I want to go fine. Plus the savings from skipping the front disc brake conversion will easily cover the cost of a new electric wiper motor and I am going to have to add a big hub puller for the tapered D44 to my tool collection as well at some point - I'd like to get the parking brakes working. I also need to budget for some new tires....As much as I like the disc brake upgrade from R&P, it wouldn't be the best use of funds right now....

    In terms of the sbc 283 and transmission and OD - nothing is changing on that right now....Its going to get run as is...if something blows up we'll go from there. From what I gather, T90's have a tendency to jump out of 2nd gear, and this one does not, so I am taking that as a sign its not in too bad a shape. It doesn't make any noises and shifts fine (I am still getting used the difference in shifting the t90 vs T14 - it really is a different feel) even though the clutch fork and cable is kind of wonky. I might eventually talk to Richard about clutch options at some point...its good to have plan, and I have to be a bit more budget minded this coming year than some...
     
  19. Dec 17, 2019
    melvinm

    melvinm Member

    Arvada Co. 80003
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    I would be interested to see how that disc brake kit works out . I have that kit now but haven't installed it yet.
    Going to wait till spring. Using it on A 1974 cj5.
     
  20. Dec 17, 2019
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member

    exploring the...
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    make one with an old t shirt and some fiberglass...jp magazine had a write up on this .a bit messy but easy. ive made a few some cardboard ,wood and a tshirt. out of pocket cost about twenty bucks worth o fiberglass and some time.
     

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