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Dj-5c Restoration - 3s + 1w

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by Jeff Bromberger, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Jan 5, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Brake adjuster parts ordered, and they arrive tomorrow morning. All of that work on the star adjusters for naught.
     
  2. Jan 6, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member

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    Not for naught ... you are having a learning experience keep it up and you’ll be driving around in no time
     
  3. Jan 10, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Nobody expects to be first at everything. Nobody wants to be the "second date of the night"...

    Today, I hit the engine block hard. I have gone to a machine shop, and they told me what they needed me to do by way of disassembly so that they could measure and do whatever is needed to make the block suitable for a rebuild.

    I knock off the valve cover - tiny little 1/4 inch bolts! And except for minor debris in there, it's pretty clean looking! Next, I take off the rocker arms. Did you know that every rocker bridge has a strange torque to it? As if it isn't straight? I can't say, but I'd swear that something is wrong here and I didn't put enough pressure on them when I unscrewed them (using a 3/8 inch socket wrench - no air tools) to bend each and every one of those.

    Then the pushrods come out. The tops are beautiful. The bottoms? Somebody been playing in what looks like mud...

    Manifolds come off. Funny - sometimes there's a bolt, other times it is a stud. No rhyme or reason to this. It just is. At least they all use the same size wrench. And why are there two gaskets between the head and manifold? One's a silvery one (probably asbestos or something) and the other is black. And I should have saved a picture, but it looks like the black one was an afterthought, as it kinda wove in and out of the silver one. Probably never had a good seal. What was the old owner thinking?

    Now, with the manifolds off, I get the first inkling that something here is, as my rabbi said, not so kosher:
    Freeze-Plugs.jpg

    I can see that not only am I the second beau for this dance, but that this hunka iron was a commercial rebuild not all that long ago. I'm kinda scared, as a rebuild doesn't say what was done. Oversized? Idunno. All I can say is that this isn't factory pure. And now I know that this isn't a red engine because it was sold in California. It's red because the last kind soul who rebuilt it could not find the time to paint it blue again.

    A big gulp, and then I remove the head. 14 huge bolts. Well, 10 huge bolts and 4 studs in random places. I celebrate, because instead of just getting the nuts, I get the whole stud extracted. Yeah, the nut got rusted solid to these studs. Now, if I want, I can use plain bolts next time and none of this mishmash that's going on here. Now, with the bolts/studs out, the head just lifts off! Ha! Fooled ya, didn't I?

    Sucka must have been attached with Krazy Glue and possibly a loogie or two. I sprayed the part of the head gasket that was exposed with Deep Creep, all the way around the block. Then, I whipped out the engine hoist and tied the chains to the head. And then lifted. And the block rose into the air as if by magic. IF Krazy Glue can hold that construction guy by the helmet, then who knows what magic I'm bonded with. Harry Potter didn't learn this one in shop class at Hogwarts!

    Lunch time - I need to depressurize.

    I come back and start the old "if you can't beat 'em, then BEAT 'EM HARDER!" protocol. Whanging on the head with a deadblow hammer. I must've looked like an idiot or something.

    Finally, I start hammering a screwdriver between head and block right at the front of Cylinder One. A couple of well placed body slams and the gasket surrenders and the engine stand takes the block's weight and the head is swinging free. Winnah!

    Oy, I look down and almost lose my lunch:
    All-Cylinder-Bores.jpg

    How's that for fun and sparkly bores? And here's the matching head surfaces:
    All-Cylinder-Heads.jpg

    I realize that the mail (and therefore a mail jeep) is supposed to get through no matter what, but it looks like this block went scuba diving on the weekends. I have pictures of the lifter/tappets, too, and they are just as sad. How in the name of Whataburgers can you screw up a block this bad in 15 years?

    I soaked the exposed pistons in Deep Creep and wrapped the block in plastic to slow evaporation. Maybe I can break those free once I get to the bottom side of the block. I can now verify that the sick feeling in my gut is that I'm gonna need 100% new replacements for pistons, valves, maybe lifters. And if I am doing that, I might as well do a cam shaft, too.

    No clue what the lower half of the engine looks like yet. It's my turn to make dinner, so I came up early to clean myself and document where I am right now.
     
  4. Jan 13, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Timing cover: off
    Timing chain: saggy baggy. I am surprised it is so loose. Not enough to slip a tooth, but I thought it was supposed to be taut...
    Oil Pan: let's just say that the pan never met a torque wrench. And that the PO had a love affair with putting RTV on top of regular gaskets. What a mess. And, in the sump? Odd, gelatinous material that was graphite gray. Not black like tar/sludge but gray. It almost looked white! Greasy like half congealed bacon fat.

    Tomorrow I invert the whole thing and start with the main caps. Maybe pull the crankshaft before I go beating on the stuck pistons.

    FWIW: camshaft spins freely, and even if the tops of the tappets are crud infested, they all move up/down as the camshaft silently spins.
     
    ojgrsoi likes this.
  5. Jan 17, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Today, the block went off to the machine shop. Here's the story:

    Mains came off easily enough, although I was not fond of the slurp sound when the bolt came free of the oil at the bottom. Most of the bearings came out as the caps came off, and let's just say I was floored.

    The connecting rods were unconnected, and those bearings were a pitiful sight.

    Crank came out without a single hitch.

    Pistons 1,2,3,5 and 6 came out using just the handle of the dead blow rubber hammer, and POOF, that was it. They were fouled every which way you could imagine them. The rust was only on the face, since there was so much blow by grease, oil, soot and crap that the rust didn't stand a chance on the piston sides.

    Piston 4. Well, that was a story. It didn't wanna come out. Not at all. I could gently bop it back down the cylinder, but coming out the top was just not happening. After 5 minutes, my mind went out for coffee and left me alone with the engine. And I did the unspeakable. I bopped it out the bottom of the cylinder opening, expecting it to just fall out. Imagine the fun when the piston did not clear the main journals! And it didn't clear by a lot! Wait, it gets better! The silly piston, of course, won't go back in the cylinder bore because of the rings, and you can't get a ring compressor in from the bottom.

    By now, I'm prepared to hunt down the previous owner of this engine and dismantle them. About this time, my brain comes back from lunch. And I come to the truth that there are limited options here. I can try to cut the piston into parts, but that's long, messy and I stand a chance of further messing up the bore. I can putter around and try to compress the rings and get the damn thing back in the bore. Or, there's option three. The rings are shot, right? Just rip 'em off and then the remaining piston should go back in the hole, and we can get back to removing it from the top. Bingo!

    First ring is thick and it takes effort to shatter it (in 3 places) for removal. Second ring is rusted in place compressed, so let's not tempt the fates. The two thin rings on either side of the corrugated oil ring pop out without much effort, and then the piston drops back in again. And with the rings gone, now it just falls out the top.

    Once it's all apart, I put the ends back on the connecting rods and reattach the mains. It was fun dealing with the connecting rods, because Piston 1 was in Bore 3. Piston 2 was in Bore 2. Piston 3 was Bore 5. You get the idea. At least the numbers on the upper and lower parts of the connecting rod matched.

    And while I'm nosing about, I really look at the bearings. For the connecting rods, the top halves were 100% copper. The bottoms about 50% of the copper was exposed. The mains? Here's the upper half of them (from 7 to 1):
    All_Mains.jpg
    The bottoms were less worn, but still bad. Here, you can see the copper exposed on the first (pulley side) bearing, and the seventh (the flywheel side) has two huge wear spots. Bearings 2 and 6 are not much better. It's not what you expect to see at all.

    So, with that done, everything went into the truck, and it got dropped off at the local machine shop. Here's what they have planned for me:
    • Block clean and prep (including polish mating surfaces and bores, fit new main bearings, etc)
    • Head clean and polish, plus valve job
    • Crankshaft measure and polish
    • Camshaft polish
    • Connecting Rods clean and measure and refit with new bearings
    • Tins (oil pan, timing cover, valve cover) vat clean
    They were very concerned that some of the parts, such as the crank, will have to be trued up again and they don't want to remove too much material. The bores are iffy at best. Pistons are toast, maybe they can save the rods. They thought that either the block was run without oil until it seized up (and I know there was black sludge, so there musta been oil at some point) or that it never had a oil change and grit/debris made it into the oil and the filter failed so it just kept recirculating through.

    Either way, I'll know by Monday what was salvageable and what will need to be purchased.
     
  6. Jan 17, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I'm cursed. Cursed, I say!

    There is an eight inch crack in the water jacket which could possibly be repairable. Two of the pistons were bored out to 10 over. Another two are bored out to 30 over. Last two are factory fresh.

    No word yet on the crank or head assembly.

    Proposal is to bore 'em all to 60 over and call it a day, and clean/repair the crack and finish the rebuild. But how long will this engine work after this heavy lifting is done? I am trying to find a different block but it's slow going in the winter season... Would you go for the repair route or try to salvage yet another block?

    Yick.
     
  7. Jan 17, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    60 over should be fine for a conventional iron block like this. Typically these blocks go 30 over for the first rebuild, then 60, then they are done. If you worry, ask the shop to sonic test the block for you.

    Usually heroic bock repairs like crack repair are not economically warranted unless the block is something special (ie rare and not otherwise available, and going in a valuable car). Eight inches is a huge crack. Is the seller nearby? Ask if they will take it back. A 232 should be a cigar butt in terms of value ... a 258 would work too. The pre-81 258 block is the same as the 232 block; only the crank, rods and pistons are different.

    JMO - if the shop says they can fix the crack, ask where its located and if they'd guarantee the repair, and for how long. If they will stand behind the repair, the repaired block will be fine, good for another 100K-150K miles. However, for a 232, it should be cheaper to find another block than to fix a big crack.

    I would be proactive about this and post on the WTB (want to buy) forums on the Jeep forums like this one, Jeep forum, the Wagoneer forums, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  8. Jan 17, 2020
    Dne007

    Dne007 Member 2020 Sponsor

    Cypress, Tx
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    OK Jeffypoo, I'm up to speed on what's up here~ and I'm aboard to witness your progress (or other), kidding! you are a go getter and love your writing style!!
    hey, can you post a pic of what it's going to look like, or what your goal of what you want it to look like? ;)
    dne' ;)
     
  9. Jan 18, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member

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    too bad you are in dallas tx, I have three i6 blocks to choose from that I am not using.
     
  10. Jan 18, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I would look into local connections to find another block ... here's a list of Texas Jeep clubs. Jeep Clubs - Texas

    You could also try AMC clubs, though the AMC guys seem to value their parts a lot more highly than Jeepers: Texas AMC clubs - Bing

    Realize that a pre-71 232 is different from the '71 and later engine, so stay away from those. You could also go with a later (1981 or later) 258 or a 4.0L from any XJ Cherokee or MJ pickup. The 258 will be carbureted, but the 4.0Ls will all be fuel injected, though your existing manifolds should bolt up. Or keep the fuel injection ... A 4.0L will not have provision for a mechanical fuel pump, but that's easy to overcome with an aftermarket electric pump. Pretty sure the Grand Cherokee 4.0L blocks have different mounting bosses, so avoid those.

    If you decide you need just a block you could try the Jeep Strokers forum: www.jeepstrokers.com These guys take cranks from 258s and put them in 4.0L blocks, so they should have left-over 232/258 blocks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  11. Jan 29, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Guess who's home from rehab!!!
    Prepped_Block.jpg

    The engine shop (Blaine's, here in Dallas) did a primo job on this. I dropped off everything, more or less. They prepped the block, rebored me .060 over, polished the crank, polished the cam (so I can use new tappets), did a valve job and even boiled the tins for me.

    Yes, I got the crack fixed. Next time I get to the block, I will show the site of the repair. You can only tell it was repaired because it is smooth, lacking the sandcast surface look. It ran across from the bottom of the cylinders, and from what I was told, was only leaking under pressure. It was opened up, prepped and repaired. Was it worth it? Probably - the repair cost less in dollars than me getting another block, paying to have that new one boiled and fluxed, etc. So for now I am happy. Tomorrow, I start masking it off for primer and Friday (hopefully) the first coat goes on.

    More as I get there, and with more pictures, too.
     
    bigbendhiker, Jw60 and ojgrsoi like this.
  12. Jan 29, 2020
    Dne007

    Dne007 Member 2020 Sponsor

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    That is BEAUTIFUL!! for a block that is;)
     
  13. Jan 29, 2020
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

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    That looks much better. Now take your time and prep it well.
     
  14. Jan 29, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    OK - talking about prep, here's three questions...

    First, does anybody recommend priming the inside of the lower half of the block? I know to mask off the bearing surfaces, but how about the rest of the insides? Yes, yes, yes. Oil covers all of that when she's running. But until then?

    Second, when using Plastigauge, I presume that you have to install all of the mains first, and then check one and only one at a time, in order, right? You want them all torqued down before you pop one open to measure it? And you do the same for the rod bearings, too (install all and then check 'em one by one)?

    Third, what is "break in oil" and where do I get it? How long should I keep it in the freshly built engine?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  15. Jan 29, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Member 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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  16. Jan 30, 2020
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

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    Break in oil has extra zinc and additives because the initial run in of the cam and the following seating of the piston rings generate a lot of localized heat and pressure.
    I did the 20min cam run in with break in oil then changed oil and filter keeping an eye out for large items that might have come loose. Then change it again after 100 miles or so with moderate load to get the rings to seat and reduce oil consumption. With flat tappets zinc additive or engine oil rated for gas and diesel engines is a good idea.

    Your on the right track with plastigage, check vertically and maybe horizontal if you can.
     
  17. Jan 30, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I understood the Glyptal treatment was imagined to shed the oil faster and keep more oil in the sump. Doubtful there has been any actual A-B testing of this. It looks cool though. Anyway, no need to worry about oil starvation with this engine under normal use.

    If you don't go the Glyptal route (pointless with this engine IMO), I would not put any paint-like coating on the inside of the block. Instead, if I were worried about rust, I would mix some solvent with oil (just so it's easier to paint) and spray or brush the inside of the block with that.

    Re Plastigage, the TSM describes the procedure. I don't think you need to torque down all the rods then inspect - you can do them one at a time. In addition to Plastigage, you will need a feeler gauge to check the side clearance.
     
  18. Feb 28, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Straight outta Bellevue! 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Quick question before I torque things down...

    Rear springs (front springs too) have a nub that faces upwards. The rear axle has a socket/receptacle for said nub on the spring. If I snap the axle onto the nub, then there is no way to adjust for "squareness" of said axle to the spring.

    Is this the way it is supposed to be? Should I just be happy that it all fits together and don't panic about the axle?

    j
     
  19. Feb 29, 2020
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

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    Yep pin on leaf pack locates in hole. there is a bit of wiggle room but if it's off in alignment. The spring perches and springs will need checked.
     
  20. Feb 29, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Yep, the round peg goes in the round hole. The u-bolts (spring clips) will hold the axle to the spring with prodigious force. Put everything together and the "squareness" is determined by the dimensions of the frame and springs. There's no adjustment in that - if the frame is bent, the squareness will be wrong. Otherwise just let the parts go together and hold everything in alignment.
     

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