Clarification on a frame repair

Okay guys, my newest problem after getting steering all together and what not. Went to deflate tires for a test run for some offroading and noticed my frame is cracked all the way through the c-channel behind the drivers spring hanger. My jeep was rolled three times before I bought it and it was repaired with some plate, that cracked. I welded it up 3-4 years ago at a welding shop. I grinded the weld down and put a few passes across the weld. I can't remember if I drilled the crack I believe I did, but never know with remembering 3-4 years ago. I did not put a piece of plate over the old repair.

after researching this, I come across this link:

http://www.earlycj5.net/forums/showthread.php?74407-Suggestions-on-Frame-Repair

My first question is for MPC or CJ442 has your repairs held up? others can answer for them or if you made a big repair like this let me know how it worked?

My thoughts where to use a ARC welder (stick) to weld up my frame. Start by cutting off the old repair plate. Grinding and welding original crack with 6010, then grind down and put a plate over. I don't think I can get to the back side of the frame without pulling out all the brakes and plate for master cylinder either..

I was thinking angle Iron to cover the repair and distribute the stress but after seeing Steve's repair I feel like I should go a similar route he took. I imagine with what ever plate method I choose I run 6010 first then a good 7018 AC rod?

Frame Cracks, I will try and get pictures with camera later.

 

Not that I want to hurt anyone's feelings , but that first repair was not done correctly nor was the weld quality very good............the failure occurred because the original crack was never fixed correctly internally and on both sides and the plate that was used to bridge the crack is of the wrong size and shape...............If you want to fix it correctly a channel the size of the inside web of the frame rail should be formed and used inside the existing frame rail. This channel should extend at least 8-12" on either side of the crack and should have two tapered blunt diamond shaped ends per side..........the shape of the repair would be similar to the one that 442 Steve did on his frame repair although his flange only extended on the bottom side only which may be fine if the crack is just partially through..........but in your case it looks like the crack is in the main web and through both top and bottom flanges......hence the need to capture the complete frame rail.

Also 6010 rod is primarily a Pipe welding rod.........DC current only so if you have just an AC machine it will not work.............and you do not need to do a root weld first with 6010 and a finish with 7018 that again is Pipeline welding techniques. 6011 rod will go either AC/DC.........6011 would be a better choice since it's not deep penetrating which is OK in this case since the base frame material is only at best .125 thick............I would use just the 7018 low hydrogen rod for the complete project but standard 7018 runs on DCEP or reverse polarity only. If your welder is just a basic AC buss box you can buy 7018AC rod. If the project was clean enough I probably would also consider using the MIG on it..........

The frame needs to be supported , leveled and then the long task of cleaning the weld zone , planning the repair and grinding and cutting out all the garbage.........you need to get inside and fix that also. This is just but barely covering the surface on the total repair............If you have more questions ask away.

This repair was done on a strut on a piece of heavy equipment.........just to show the proper shape of the gussets......

 

Thanks tarry, your not hurting feelings. The original repair was by someone else that I don't know. I just tried repairing it a few years back and didn't know any better.

Anyways, so in order to get some channel on the inside and weld it, I would need to remove some of the factory boxing. Because the bottom crack starts where the factory boxing stops. The crack goes up to the top but not the top flange. Sense this is second time that I know of, I would question if it's been fatigued.

This repair sounds like I will have to pull the body if I plan on correctly doing. Which I was hoping to avoid pulling the body. If this is the case, which it probably is. This repair might have to go on hold tell December.

I will look at the frame in the afternoon again but look on the inside frame rail to get a better idea. I am sure I will have more questions on this, like how I would approach cleaning the crack.

 

The plug welds in that boom repair are interesting. I wonder if they actually do anything other than look cool.

JMO - grind off all the crappy weld and the original plate and take a good look at how it's broken.

 

Pif, First off no frame repair is the same and getting to the best solution requires some time to study what you have and where it is...........so more detailed photos need to be had of both outside and inside along with the distance to any cross members and any other stress related component attachments like a motor , transmission or suspension mount.........what does the opposite side frame rail look like? Most times when one side breaks the other is not far behind.....I would at the very least get it up on jack stands so that no further damage can occur.........

Tim, cool as they may look they do serve a purpose..........Those Plug welds or Rosette Welds in the field of a plate are a common practice in fabrication when a butt weld around the outside perimeter of the joint may not offer enough rigidity to the repair. Think of them as a pin , rivet or bolt in the field..........most helpful even when attaching thin material together like tubing........Otherwise, the assembly would depend on the quality and strength of the butt weld only.

 

I have done this repair three times now. I did something very similar to what Tarry posted. I ground out the crack and welded it. I then added a strap to the top and bottom of the frame and a plate to the outside of the frame.

 

Quick post, I read other post but will reply later today. Just wanted to post up pictures before I leave work.

Main frame rail



bottom



Bottom Inside


Inside frame


shows wear crack isn't





how close to spring mount



End of crack outside of frame rail


Other side is clean

 

Looks like you have a pretty good job ahead of you.........Not sure if the body needs to totally come off but surely it would be nice if it did or at least block it up 12" above the frame rails to give you some room to work. Looks like that's on the drivers side forward opposite or near the Master Cylinder. That inside boxing would need to be taken off or cut back to gain access to the inside and later replaced with a longer section.........If you have a power washer handy , now may be a good time to give that chassis a good bath.......so you can take a hard look at the rest of that chassis fore & Aft L/R and see what other surprise may be there.......just saying that sometimes another chassis may be a better solution.
In either case it can be fixed..............

 

When I finally took the time to repair as opposed to patch, my cracking problem went away.

 

Hey guys,

I was able to grind off that plate, sorry no picture forgot camera. Tomorrow, I will bring camera.

There is no indication of any repair under the plate, I wish I would of known better and took that plate off three years ago. This time it will be fixed like it should. I am not sure why someone would cover a crack and not weld it, when they welded the plate over it.

Anyway, How far would I box after master cylinder once repair is made? I guess I should ask what would be ideal? because it looks like I can maybe go 2-3 inches before I run into mechanical clutch
I was also looking at the inside of the frame, If I am to go 6-7 inches inside of frame rail I think It be best to pull the body. 6-7 inches right in the way of the master cylinder bracket and what not.
I will have to wait till December to pull of a repair like this, which will give me plenty of time to think about it.

and to those who have pulled the repairs off, thank you. It is reassuring, seeing and hearing it is possible to make it happen and not break within a reasonable time or permanently.

 

I would again say that you capture as much as possible either side of the break............The old repair as you have now found was not done correctly.......First the crack should have been V'd out a little......but remember that material is only about.125" thick so this almost becomes more surgery like!..........(when faced with thin material like this that has an uneven edge I will take a 1/4" thick piece of solid copper and use it to back up the back side of the weld.......The weld will not stick to the copper and if your proficient enough when finished the back side rarely needs much grinding!)...........both side's again need to be flat and ground flush , to accept the channel / plate on both inside and out.........since the top & bottom frame flange's have been compromised / broke , I feel the only way to fix that correctly is to wrap it with a formed channel using 3/16"-1/4" material that is a tight fit to the now outside dimensions of your existing frame rail...............I say outside but that fabricated channel could be put inside the frame rail also..........but for aesthetics and perhaps a little more strength putting it on the outside would probably be best. On the inside up against the now flat welded area a flat long gusset / plate with plug holes in it much like the one I showed earlier would work and then finish covering that area back up inside with the boxing material that had to be removed earlier...........If getting that channel formed is an issue I can help! .................More pictures will determine the final outcome! Just my opinion!

 

Repair plate off, with no signs of any attempt to weld. Now I know, see a plate on the frame take it off.








I got the jeep moved to the closest plug for 220, and a board under with jacks on it. I am hoping the board will keep the jack from sinking in the dirt when it rains.






For V-ing out the crack, what type of gap am I looking for on a crack like this? 1/8 like the grinding wheel width and then carefully angle on each side? what is the standard approach for doing something like this? My welding education at the college a few years back didn't cover this stuff. Just how to glue pieces of metal together and some safety.


That sounds like a good approach, making a piece of channel to weld outside and a long gusset. I will keep that in mind about the copper, probably a good thing to have around too.


Warloch: yep, understood about offsetting the gussets and rotating so it doesn't apply pressure on both sides in same spots causing weakening.

 

Well that does not surprise me............First question: Are you going to fix this now or wait till the end of the year as you mentioned...........If you going to let it set I would just get it up on stands or if it's stable where it's at leave it till you can do the complete project............You have just entered the ER and that frame is about ready to crack the rest of the way in half..........and right now before you do to much it's better off not to disturb it. Much easier to get back together when the two pieces are still close together as opposed to being 1" inch apart...............That's why right now I think you should secure it where it sets. As far as grinding the crack out as I mentioned there is not much there and I would not use that big 4" grinding wheel that has a 1/4" radius edge on it..........I would probably take a die grinder with a small angled tapered burr on it and cut a small taper in the crack on one side only...........Both sides need to be cleaned up but not with that big course grinding wheel your using..........removes too much metal to easy!...........

I think what again I would do here is to get it to the point either on blocks where it sets now and level...........that area where you removed the plate from I would clean that up with a wire wheel and they use an abrasive flap disc.........and prepare a piece of clean plate that you can bridge that gap right in the middle say 1.25-1.50 x 3/16" by 6 inches and tack weld it in place in the center of the joint on both side. Once in place and straight you can then cleanup the top and bottom flanges and the balance of the crack that's not covered with your patch.............this is just temporary only! Now you can V out the crack on one side and fix the balance of the crack without it moving around........once you have the two flanges top & bottom looking good and straight both inside and out , you can remove the temporary plate and fix the balance and prepare it for the external bridge formed plate I mentioned. I'll put my phone number in a PM to you and walk you through it if you like.

 

Yes, I will have to wait to do the whole repair. I got to head back to Sacramento this Sunday night. I currently have two jack stands one on each side of the crack so its supported all ready. As you probably saw in the PM already, I will give a call and ask a few questions. That way I can make sure I can get everything safe and set up for when I can do it.

Makes sense about the adding a temporary plate.