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Cj5 V6 225 Clutch/pilot Bushing Headach,

Discussion in 'Early CJ-5 and CJ-6 Tech' started by Tomellen, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. Jun 13, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
    Messages:
    295
    I installed a Herm built T86 coverted to T90 transmission in my CJ5. 225, but now having shifting problems.

    I believe my cutch is working properly because:
    When it is in first gear, clutch pedal out and not running I bump the start key the jeep lurches forward.This tells me clutch is engaged.

    If I do the same thing with clutch in motor will just crank. This tells me clutch is not engaged.

    When trans is in neautral motor running I push the clutch in and try to put in first it grinds. Same trying to go in reverse.

    With these symptoms I believe clutch is working, problem is at pilot bushing. BUT when the shop put new trans in ( with transfer case and bellhousing installed on trans) they said it went in smooth as silk. They installed the bushing that Herm supplied and when I test fit that bushing on the new transmission input shaft it was a loose fit. The shops says they took off clutch asm off to get old pilot bushing out and the new one in and that went well. They said everything went back on correctly.

    Both shop and I are at a loss as what the problem is and if it is the pilot bushing, what caused it.

    Your thoughts are welcome and needed .
     
  2. Jun 13, 2019
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    cordele, Ga.
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    With the trans in gear and clutch to the floor, start the engine. Does it try to pull the jeep?
     
  3. Jun 13, 2019
    Iandavidh

    Iandavidh Member

    California
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    Sep 24, 2018
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    83
    Make sure the clutch linkage is adjusted properly
     
  4. Jun 13, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Sep 16, 2016
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    no.
     
  5. Jun 13, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
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    3/4 inch of play in peddel.
     
  6. Jun 13, 2019
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Riverside CA
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
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    7,715
    Normal.
    Shift into 2nd gear first, then the others won't grind.
     
    Tom_Hartz and 1967 CJ5A like this.
  7. Jun 13, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Sep 16, 2016
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    I hope your right
     
  8. Jun 13, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Sep 16, 2016
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    not sure this will work but will try.
     
  9. Jun 13, 2019
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    North Carolina
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    Apr 9, 2014
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    That's what works for me too.
     
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  10. Jun 13, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
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    tom and jpflat2a,
    So if your in neutral with the motor running and u push the clutch in u have to go to second before you can shift into first without grinding????? Thanks
     
    Tom_Hartz likes this.
  11. Jun 13, 2019
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

    Sedalia MO.
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
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    140
    What fluid are you using? 80-90 or something thinner?
    Mine would turn with the motor after the v6 swap. I don't know why but it was with very minimal force I could hold it still with a popsicle stick on the gear.
     
  12. Jun 13, 2019
    BJHitson60

    BJHitson60 Member

    San Rafael, CA
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2009
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    157
    So, I have experienced the same phenomenon when installing a new clutch and pilot bushing in my V6 Jeep with T-86. What you have is a situation where you have little friction - enough to turn the input shaft - but not enough to seriously move the vehicle. It does not take much much friction to move the input shaft so that it grinds in first and/or reverse. Two possible problems: 1. the pilot bushing was slightly deformed when it was installed such that it now causes enough friction to turn the input shaft when the clutch is disengaged; or 2. the clutch is not fully disengaging either to improper adjustment, improper installation or incorrect parts installed (fork, pressure plate, or clutch release bearing).

    IMHO, the most likely cause is that the pilot bushing was slightly deformed when it was installed as some of them really need to be pounded hard to go in. One solution is do what was suggested by one member i.e., shift it into second briefly (while the clutch is in) to use the inertia of the gear train to stop or slow down the spinning input shaft. If you do this quickly, it should go into first pretty easily with minor to no grind. Now the trick is to leave it in first for a while with the clutch in. With the transmission in first and the clutch disengaged, the pilot bearing will now be spinning around the fixed input shaft. This rotation - over a prolonged period - should start to wear down the little deformation of the pilot bushing (which is likely causing the friction) and eventually the set up should work properly. For me it took several weeks of driving (that is settling at a stop light with the clutch in and the transmission in gear) for the problem to work itself away. Note: the brass pilot bushings are fairly soft and are pretty easy to deform if the thing is not aligned strait when pounding it in. Hope the helps...:schooled: It's easier than pulling the tranny and installing a new pilot bushing.
     
    Tom_Hartz likes this.
  13. Jun 14, 2019 at 12:23 AM
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Riverside CA
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    Jul 30, 2003
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    9 times out of 10
    Yes
    Just makes for easier and smoother shifting effort...and less grinding.
     
    Tom_Hartz likes this.
  14. Jun 14, 2019 at 6:55 AM
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    This is not uncommon with a new clutch, until the friction plate breaks in.
     
  15. Jun 14, 2019 at 10:26 AM
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    North Carolina
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    Yes, there is no synchro in first gear.
     
  16. Jun 14, 2019 at 11:48 AM
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
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    Messed with the problem this morning. I have no idea what it could be. I want to repeat symptoms for clarity:
    1--Transmission is very difficult to shift into any gear when not running and clutch pedal pushed in. NOT NORMAL
    2--When running and in neutral, clutch pedal in, it will grind when trying to shift and not go in 1st, 2nd or reverse, could not get down to 3rd gear. NOT NORMAL
    3-- once in first gear, pedal pushed in and running, jeep will move forward as it should when clutch pedal is released same in reverse. THIS IS NORMAL
    4--once in first gear, not running, clutch pedal out, jeep will lurch forward when key is turned to start. THIS IS NORMAL
    5--once in first gear, not running, clutch pedal in, jeep will not lurch when key is turned. THIS IS NORMAL

    Got rebuilt transmission from Herm. He says the problem is clutch. So I'm going to go thru the NOVACK clutch trouble shooting process and see what issues I can eliminate.
    Pretty sure clutch linkage is correct but would like to confirm clutch cable or rod length and the bell crank rod length for a stock 1968 cj5 v6 225 OF.. Been looking on internet, but haven't searched forum yet.

    Clutch linkage adjustment seems right. I have it at about a inch of pedal play. and have moved it both ways with no change.

    Shop that did work said they would take transmission, bellhousing and transfer case out and eat costs if we found something that was not done incorrect. I would still have to disconnect everything and remove cross member.

    I will figure it out like I always do. Thanks for your help COMMENTs welcome.
    .
     
  17. Jun 14, 2019 at 3:10 PM
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Member

    Louisville, Ky
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
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    781
    When I put my engine in, I did not have the pilot bearing connected to the clutch fork right. I had issues With shifting. look at the FSM.
     
  18. Jun 14, 2019 at 3:51 PM
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
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    The pilot bearing is a installed in the back of the crankshaft. I think your talking about the throwout or release bearing and I know the issue u had.
     
  19. Jun 14, 2019 at 4:48 PM
    tomasinator

    tomasinator Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2015
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    189
    I think I had a similar problem to yours. I probably posted this story in "what did I do to my jeep today", but here it is again in case the problem is the same.

    I found that after going on a long drive (just driving down to Redmond is considered a long drive) in my 3B with a transplanted even-fire V6, I had a very difficult time getting the T-90 transmission to shift to first gear. Even with the clutch fully depressed, trying to shift to first would just grind the gears. A month ago (actually over a year ago in this repost of the story), I crawled under the jeep to see if I could adjust the clutch so the gears wouldn't grind. I found the cable to the clutch release lever as tight as a piano string. When the clutch pedal is out, there should be no pull on the clutch release lever. If there's pull, that means the lever is putting pressure on the clutch's throwout bearing. In my Willys, the clutch cable was adjusted so tight that the bearing was spinning all the time, the equivalent of driving around with your foot on the clutch pedal. I adjusted the cable to release the tension. When I tested the clutch, I couldn't put the transmission in gear with the engine running. It became clear what was going on. If the theoretical range of the clutch goes from 0 (no pressure on the throwout bearing) to 10 (the clutch is completely disengaged and no torque is being applied to the transmission), my current setup only allows me to adjust for a range of 5 out of 10. In order to work at all, the clutch is neither full disengaged when the clutch pedal is pushed in nor fully engaged when the clutch pedal is out. Both of these limits were exposed when I tried to drive the Willys up a very steep hill. I couldn't shift the transfer case into 4wd with the engine running because the clutch wouldn't fully disengage. I tried to drive up the ramp in 2wd in first gear and the clutch slipped and the jeep wouldn't go up the hill. I needed to fix this.

    The problem with my clutch is the non-stock clutch release arm is longer than the stock one. In order to compensate for the longer lever, I needed to increase the length of another lever. I planned to weld a longer lever on a clutch release tube. The tube is pinned between two knobs, one on the inside of the frame and the other knob on the side of the transmission. To get the tube out, I supported the transmission and removed the bolts from the transmission support brace between the frame rails. I got the tube out and fabricated a longer lever. I drilled multiple holes so I could find the best adjustment point. I welded the new lever on the tube at a point where there would be clearance in the transmission tunnel.
    [​IMG]

    I installed the tube with the new lever, connected the linkages, and bolted the transmission support back in place. The lever on the tube's left is connected via a rod to the clutch pedal. The lever on the right side of the tube is connected to a cable which is connected to the clutch lever in front. Notice the clutch cable now has a bit of slack. Miraculously, the fix works. I can now shift the transmission into any gear without grinding and the pressure plate is fully engaged when the clutch pedal is released.
    [​IMG]

    That was nearly a year ago and the clutch and shifting has worked great. No more gear grinding or clutch slipping. Is it possible your clutch release arm is longer than stock and you're running into the same problem?
     
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  20. Jun 14, 2019 at 8:09 PM
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
    Messages:
    295
    Very cool fix for your problem. I see your clutch release fork is longer than stock. I have the stock fork, but I'm not sure about the rod to clutch pedal length which could be wrong.

    My set up is stock. 2 unknowns are rod to clutch pedal rod and release cable length. I'm trying to determine rod to pedal length required for my application, buy no luck yet.

    Thank u for your story Confirms that linkage geometry could be the issue.
    '
     
    Keys5a likes this.

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