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CJ5 questions/opinions

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by venturaII, Dec 18, 2004.

  1. Dec 18, 2004
    venturaII

    venturaII New Member

    Shrewsbury, MA
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    Hi - new member here; not new to Jeeps, but new to CJ5's. This is a cross post, but I did it so I could get the opinion of BOTH groups of people (Intermediates and Early CJ5 owners). I apologize in advance.

    I'm in the market for a CJ5 as a daily driver. I'm already aware that these are spartan utility vehicles, so don't try to scare me off from that angle. As the saying goes, good Jeeps are built, not bought, so what I'm looking for isn't a bone-stocker CJ. My intentions are to perform a SBC and 4 or 5 speed conversion. This will be a mild, but high torque motor so I can pull a decent gear on the highway and keep the motor in the loafing range. I cruise at 70-75, and I'm VERY easy on equipment (I've been wheeling an XJ with 33's for 150K miles now on the stock D30/35 combo, and not a problem in sight).

    My question is: what is the best CJ5 platform to start with? I love the early 60's Kaiser styling (big steering wheel, no flares, or roll bar, side mounted spare, etc), but don't know if the chassis/drivetrain is up to the task of 350 ft/lbs of torque. Do ALL CJ5's use the same basic frame, or are there significant upgrades along the years? What about drivetrain combo's? I'd like to start with a 4 or 6 cyl motor, as it's just going to get yanked shortly, but would I be better off looking for a factory V-8 CJ due to heavier duty components? Have there been any improvements to things like steering, fuel tank capacity/location, body durability, accessories over the years?

    I guess what I'm looking for is a good primer on the evolution of the CJ from an engineering point of view. As I said, this will be a daily driver for me, so I'm not going to be doing hardly any wheeling with it. It will be limited to marked trails, etc - no Moab runs, mud bogging, etc. I live in New England, so unfortunately I'll most likely be buying a CJ from the southwest over the Internet, due to rust. If anyone has any good tips on rustproofing, I wouldn't mind that either. The days of being able to get the underside of your car oiled before winter are gone, so any alternatives will be appreciated.

    Thanks all -

    Andy
     
  2. Dec 18, 2004
    66cj5

    66cj5 Jeep with no name

    NorthWest Indiana
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    IF i had to do over, would go post 1970. don't think a 5spd would fit. unless you plan on mud bogging, the v-6 makes enough power; remember an early 5 weighs only about 25-2700#'s.
    get one w/a :v6: and go from there.
     
  3. Dec 18, 2004
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Whew, Andy, you might split this up into a few different posts.

    The "early 60s Kaiser styling" pretty much ended in 1976, with more car-like features. The intermediates ('72-75) have pretty much the same exterior features as the Kaiser Jeeps (side mounted spare, flat dash, bus wheel). Many of the features that Jeepers were adding to their Kaiser Jeeps were included in this first generation of AMC Jeeps, including Saginaw power steering, power brakes, V8 engine, 4-speed transmission (but only with the inline 6), larger brakes, stronger open-knuckle front axle. The frame and body were lengthened to accomodate the longer engines, especially the AMC inline 6. The Dana 18 transfer case was replaced by the 'silent' Dana 20, and the sturdy T15 3-speed was used with the 304 V8.

    Before 1972, the platform changed little from its beginning in 1955 until Kaiser was purchased by AMC in 1970. AMC made a few changes in late '70 and '71, but the first real makeover was in 1972. The formerly-Buick V6 was first available from the factory in 1966, and seems an ideal powerplant for the short wheelbase pre-72 CJs; short, lightweight, sturdy, and torquey. The standard 4-cylinder f-head engine has its fans (not me); it's compact, makes a lot of torque at low revs, and has nostalgic appeal, but is boat-anchor heavy (an old design, derived from the Willys flathead designed in the 30s) and has such a long stroke that it won't last at constant high revs.

    The Chevy V6 is another good engine for these vehicles; 4.3L displacement, cheap fuel injection, and shares a lot of parts with the SBC.

    Personally I think the extra 3" wheelbase makes a big difference in the intermediates, though it might be the combination of the wheelbase, better steering, and front axle geometry.

    Is this the kind of info your asking for?
     
  4. Dec 18, 2004
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    66cj5 makes a point that's worth repeating. If you change engines or transmissions, you have to worry about the overall length of the drivetrain. A long transmission will make the rear driveshaft too short, and the angularity will be too large. 4-speeds like the T18 or SM465 are ok with the V6, but longer engines or transmissions can cause difficulty.
     
  5. Dec 18, 2004
    mb82

    mb82 I feel great!

    Charlottesville Va
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    1. where do you live we might have a member or 2 right around the corner from you

    i say go with the 4.3L V-6 chevy. i have driven a few newer jeeps with them and i got to say it is plenty of power. especially in these light Cj-5s
     
  6. Dec 18, 2004
    mb82

    mb82 I feel great!

    Charlottesville Va
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    thats a good point about driveline lenght. thats one reason i chose the chevy v-6. i figure i can move the engine a little forward if i want to
     
  7. Dec 18, 2004
    speedbuggy

    speedbuggy Looking for a Jeep now

    Living the Good...
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    I have a SBC in mine. The rest of the driveline is original and I won't change that. I've grown fond of it. I REALLY like the 350 in there, though. Enough power and quickness for just about anything.
     
  8. Dec 18, 2004
    tdobson

    tdobson Tom

    Hampton, Va.
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    I drove an almost bone stock '73 with a 304 / 3 speed for many years...it done good as a daily driver ....I usually drove 40 to 50 miles one way to work...no problems with it and it was stock enough to be easy to fix when thingd did break
     
  9. Dec 18, 2004
    Southtowns27

    Southtowns27 Custom Title

    The Backhills of...
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    I have a '55 with a Chevy 283 in it. I put an SM-465 4 speed in it and kept the original Dana 18 T-case. My rear driveshaft is 13" long. I think a 5 speed would be out of the question. That's why I got a Warn OD unit for it. Pricey, but worth it IMO. The 283 is "mildly" built and is scary-fast. You won't want to cruise at overly fast speeds. Mine starts to "float" at about 70mph and I didn't dare go faster. I usually cruise around in mine at about 62MPH. You'll also NEED to upgrade to 11" brakes so you can stop it. The ride definately leaves something to be desired and there's also no legroom whatsoever. If you're much over 6', you likely won't be comfortable. Just some of my thoughts...
     
  10. Dec 18, 2004
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
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    I think for a daily driver the intermediate is better simply because of the saginaw steering and 3" longer wheelbase. As far as tougher the later the cj5 beyond the 75 model the weaker the drivetrain became on average, light weight 4 speeds, AMC 20 axle in rear, smog controls killed power.

    This would be my idea of a good jeep with a small block in it (not my choice of motors)
    I'd prefer a 4.3 v6 for the weight issue. Take a 72-75 cj5 with power saginaw steering a sm465 granny geared 4 speed with 3.73 gears, a dana 30 up front with an Aussie locker, a dana 44 with flanged 1 piece axles with a power lock in it for the rear, and what ever motor I put in it would be fuel injected, power disk brakes up front and drilled drums in the rear to stop it with good adjustable shocks!!
     
  11. Dec 18, 2004
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Looks like your cross-post is being consolidated...

    BTW 75mph is fine in an intermediate. A 258 CJ will go all day at 75. Careful of evasive manuevers at that speed, esp. with lift and wide tires.
     
  12. Dec 18, 2004
    sparky

    sparky Sandgroper Staff Member Founder

    Perth, WA
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    I merged the threads as I specifically have posted that cross posting is not to be done.

    You'll get just as many opinions in either forum from both owners by just asking. We aren't that divided here. More for the purposes of searching. Not like JU where TJ owners prolly don't venture into the GC forum unless they own one.
     
  13. Dec 18, 2004
    venturaII

    venturaII New Member

    Shrewsbury, MA
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    As far as size goes, it's not an issue - I'm only 5'8" on a good day, and my XJ is one of the bigger vehicles I've ever owned...

    I wouldn't mind a wide ratio 4 speed so I could run gears in the mid 3's for road use, but still have a deep first gear to move off the line. I've seen plenty of later CJ5's with 4 speeds, so I was assuming that the length wouldn't be an issue. Glad you all brought it up though. I wouldn't be lifting the vehicle much more than 2" though, and running 31's, so I was assuming I could simply set the pinion angle to optimum, and use a double cardan joint at the front of the rear driveshaft.

    An SM465 is a pretty beefy tranny - I was thinking I could get away with a NP435 or similar. Is there a significant size differance? And with the CJ being relatively light, couldn't I get away with a lighter-duty tranny? (I used a Saginaw 4 speed in a '70 GM X-body behind a hot 350 for years without issues, as an example...)

    66cj5 - why would you go post 1970? Is there a chassis difference from that date forward?

    I'd also like to upgrade to disks in front (at least); is this possible with the axles that came in the earlier CJ5's, or am I looking at an entire axle swap?

    Thanks for the input everyone - keep it coming; I'm like a sponge for this stuff! :>)

    Andy
     
  14. Dec 18, 2004
    sparky

    sparky Sandgroper Staff Member Founder

    Perth, WA
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  15. Dec 18, 2004
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Not much difference between the T18 and NP435. If you have the NP435, you could use it, but the T18 is more common. Depends on which engine you're thinking of - the AMCs are easier to adapt to the T18, and the GM engines match the SM465/SM420 easily.

    Close ratio 4-speeds can be adapted, but the wide-ratio transmissions are more popular.

    The post-80 CJs use the T4, T5 and T176, all light-to-medium duty transmissions. The T18/19, SM420/465 and NP435 are all much stronger.

    The 11" drums are fine; go with disks if you want to. There's lots of info out there about converting to disks. All years can be converted to disks, but 11" drums on a '55-71 are much easier. '72-75 comes with 11" drums stock. The drum or disk upgrade is mostly a matter of collecting the right parts and doing the swap. Look at the tech info pages from the ECJ5 front page.
     
  16. Dec 18, 2004
    biscuitboy87

    biscuitboy87 New Member

    CA/OR
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    i figure that since i have an xj too, i'll just give my experience and thoughts.
    first i am seeing less original intermediates and parts are drying up...so look for one thats been modded already. (i know i'm being a bit purist here so take it with a grain of salt if you like).
    73 w/304 superjeep bone stock. have had it for 10 yrs now and done nothing to it. used it for dd and was fun, but speeds over 60 are a bit of a rush in the short wheel base lift (4") ratio and i like to cruise to work at about 80mph. have had it do 90+ but revs were WAY up there. off the line it will take a mustang 5.0 and leave em in the dust for the first 100 yards...then watch em go by. lol. it is spartan, but it is also a quality of machinery you will never find again in an american vehicle heavy guage sheet metal and a prime example of the KISS principal (keep it stupid simple). you might want to go with or find a frame that has been beefed up for HP over 125 provided you go with an SBC.
    everything you have suggested is doable and should bring alot of enjoyment.
    good luck on your search/project and let us know how it goes.
     
  17. Dec 19, 2004
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
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    You also had much smaller tires and a lot longer drives shaft to flex and absorb some of the power.
    If you want a small block chevy the sm420 or sm465 is a direct fit where the t18 and np435 require a little work, there is not alot of diference in these transmission mentioned. besides with 3.73 gears and a granny gear you can run the rocks and still run 70mph @ 2800rpm or so. If the axle is a dana 30, which all unmodified jeeps after 72 had then disks are even easier to add. The close ratio transmissions are not really geared or suited for a jeep that is used offroad because of ratios and alot of them have the external shift linkage unless they are newer and then there is the length and the light weight problem.
     
  18. Dec 19, 2004
    venturaII

    venturaII New Member

    Shrewsbury, MA
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    True, but the tires I ran were a whole lot stickier than any A/T tire out there. Plus, I drove the car a hell of a lot harder than anyone in their right mind ever would with a CJ. Anyways, my point was just that for a given amount of power, a lighter vehicle won't need as heavy duty a tranny as a heavier one.

    Do all the 4 speed options out there for the CJ5 have 1:1 top gears, or are there any that have an overdriven 4th gear? I was hoping to have highway rpms down around 2200 or so at 70-ish, for mileage reasons. Also, do any of these trannies have a synchronised first gear? If I'm running a taller axle ratio, then first gear will get used quite a bit, so synchro's would be nice.

    Also, I think I read somewhere that the later CJ5's had fully boxed frames, versus the C-channel frames of the earlier models. What year was the cutoff for this?

    I can certainly understand the "purist" point of view, regarding modifications ( or rather, NOT modifying...). That's why if they all came with the same equipment, I'd rather just find a "plain jane" model with a 4 or 6 cylinder, and go from there. I don't wanna be Boyd Coddington and hack up a piece of history if I can help it...
     
  19. Dec 19, 2004
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    The Ford top loader can have an overdrive top gear http://www.5speeds.com/toploader.html ... Not to be negative, but this seems kind of pointless if you're going to do a buildup since you can pick your axle ratio. R&P in Oregon offers an adapter for the top loaders.

    You could also run a World Class T5 with the AMC engines. The '80 and later CJs offered the T5 (not world class though) with a Dana 300 transfer case. Should be easy to adapt with an AMC engine. http://www.5speeds.com/t5/jeep.html

    The Ford T19 has a synchro 1st gear. The 1st synchro is reputed to be wimpy though.

    '76 and later was boxed. Frames on early CJs flex a lot, and stiffening the frame will reduce the articulation. To box or not is a controversial topic.

    Unmolested stockers seem to be getting scarce. You may be better off looking for somebody else's incomplete project - often can be a bargain.

    Other links to look at: www.jeeptech.com and www.novak-adapt.com
     
  20. Dec 19, 2004
    jd7

    jd7 Sponsor

    Nacogdoches,Texas
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    I think there's a Ford trans that AA makes an adapter for to bolt th the jeep transfer case the trans is the one they used in early 80s Ford truck . Not geared very low in first but fourth is an overdrive ratio. Look at the advanced adapters website.
     
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