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BOX the frame??? Yah or Nay

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by wicked4x4, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. Feb 1, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
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    well, i appreciate the good info on a quality SOA. i know it can be done, and i've also seen the rockymountain soa bolt on which looks pretty sturdy. i also was planning on doing the soa, but after reading all about it and seeing some great examples of leaving it under, now i am leaning towards that. you bring up the steering, which scares me. i know i would need to get new springs cause mine are shot. i figure if i am buying new springs i may as well leave under axle, well for now...untill someone convinces me. i would like to end up with linked and coils in the future...it's only money, right?
     
  2. Feb 1, 2008
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
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    Just a bucketfull! I ran a trail with a guy last year who had a '65 CJ with coils around and a 100" + wheelbase. Looked like Bronco axles and coils. It was an awesome rig. But.....it just didn't really look like an old CJ anymore. More like a buggy with a CJ tub on it.
     
  3. Feb 1, 2008
    double R

    double R Member

    Reseda, CA
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    Mar 18, 2003
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    how much does a stock frame articulate or flex? where is most of the frame flex happening?
     
  4. Feb 1, 2008
    Cantilope

    Cantilope Member

    My Jeep can...
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    Re: BOX the frame??? Yah

    I just happen to have my frame completely stripped sitting on cinder blocks in the garage. If I pick up the passenger side front 3", the opposite rear drivers goes down 3" without moving the other 2 corners, it is truly a rubber frame. Most if not all of the flex seems to come from the center section of rail around the tranny cross member (my cross member is installed and it is still getting this flex). It seems to flex most between the spring eyes. The rails twist like / and \ which allows the frame to do this. I am in the process of boxing and also strapping the bottom of the rail. I still wonder if this was engineered or just a cost savings, but I have cracked my frame to many times to mess around anymore and I am just not that hard on my vehicle to be cracking the frame. After I finish the boxing, I'll post some pics and let you know how much flex I lost.

    I have also taken the time to straighten my frame and put it back into square. It is amazing how springy this material is, it is not your normal steel. My drivers rail was pushed in over an inch and it was out of square 3/4". Now that is as perfect as I can get it, I can weld in the boxing, and strap, and I hope, hold its shape. I suggest taking some measurements before you weld to make sure it is correct assuming the boxing will remove any movement. We shall see...

    One more quick note, consider all of the bolts and nuts that you will never see again after it is boxed. I have welded nuts, or studs into the frame before welding to make sure I can replace something later.

    '72 CJ
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2009
  5. Feb 1, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
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    i could not tell you how much the stock frame flexes in a measurement, but my answer is WAY TOO MUCH!!!

    if i am in a section of heavy articulating-or a section of decent sized switchbacks where i am almost constantly pulling one tire off or another, the jeeps body is popping, flexing, banging, creeking, and ultimately ripping and tearing-when i take the tarp off it i will put some pics of of a couple of them. granted, this isn't from light wheeling, but at the same time, i am expecting roads i travel to only get rougher...

    it actually flexes so much, that if my front left is at full drop, and rear right is at full drop (basically nearly teatering on front right/rear left), my body is tearing away under the right side of the rear seat, and when i press the clutch pedal to the floor, it almost barely doesn't release clutch-sometimes if doing so i must pop it out of gear instead of smoothly drawing it out-and this is after addressing the situation and patching/reinforcing it in front left. to drive through these situations, i tend to just let the jeep keep on keeping on through the course and just stop when i am through it-as opposed to working the clutch the whole way-which is poor posture anyways (my wife-A HELL OF A DRIVER/WHEELER-she rocks a toyota which is a vehicle i will NEVER knock as she does the same and more in that thing than our crew of jeeps+rescues the most vehicles in our group+drives home! www.wicked4x4.com ). she gets frustrated with me telling her to get her damn foot off the clutch-when driving this jeep-and just let it idle through stuff-she is always trying to work that clutch, and i'm always slapping her leg! (sorry-on a tangent)

    so ya, i couldn't measure how much it flexes, jsut know that body mounts are torn/tearing off the body from too much flex. when i first found it in the front i was pretty new still to the feeling of wheels constantly coming off the ground. the front left came off, and i pushed that clutch pedal to the floor to find that it didn't engage at all. the body was SO FAR off the frame, my clutch (frame mounted) just didn't get the movement it needed-instant need of fixing-and after doing so, still just not right. this will be seriously addressed with the new frame strenghening and body r&r and swap over.

    i swear with out that body holding the frame back, that frame would just turn into a canoe going down the trail...:beer:
     
  6. Feb 1, 2008
    double R

    double R Member

    Reseda, CA
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
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    I wonder if the body mounts can be improved somehow to allow this frame flex to happen without pulling or twisting the body along with it: Allowing the corners of the frame to droop down from the points where it is mounted with the body. Maybe the 'sandwiched' type mounts like those found in wranglers will work better because not only can they support the weight of the body on the frame with the upper bushings, but also allow the body to be pulled away from the frame and absorbed by the bottom bushing.

    maybe some of you guys are already running the wrangler type mounting style..??
     
  7. Feb 1, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
    Joined:
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    CANTILOPE!!!
    nice, i like the idea of a little extra strapping on the bottom. i actually considered this, but nothing more. i may end up doing so as well. i truly do want a stiff frame. i was thinking of welding in those nuts inside the frame to solve this issue as well. this will need the thinking cap on since i plan on constructing a new crossmember in order to tuck my drive train a little better (along with clocking that t-case out of harms way).

    :? a question to you and all who have boxed thier frames... what guage should i box with? i think somebody had mentioned doing it with 1/8th inch, was that thick enough? the frame is 3/16th (i think), right? should i match that? i was considering using some heavy guage flat-strap (since i have a good hook on that through a friend). i know 1/8th inch=11 guage. so i was probably leaning towards some 10 guage. hmm?
    :? and if i do decide to strap the boottom as well (or top?) what guage should i use for that?


    one thing about this new frame that i have failed to mention in my last 1,000,000 posts...this jeep looks/appears to have not wheeled too much at all. in fact, it is a shame (this might hurt to read for a few of you out there) the jeep looks like it was pretty much FULLY RESTORED just before the fire took it. i can't be sure of the story i heard, but i think that the previous owner had just completed work on it just a couple or few weeks before the fire claimed it. my hat goes off to him...however, to me, it seems like i am getting a great deal on a very good condition frame-->gotta look for the positive in every mishap.

    one more time, thanks to ALL who have posted on this thread. i have recieved a lot of feedback and thank you to EVERYBODY for your opinions and tips. there are a lot of great people on this site. in fact, give yourselves a pat on the back!
    :beer:
     
  8. Feb 1, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
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    that is a good idea, maybe some tj coils for body mounts? that way this rubber frame can flex it's 12" or so, and it would allow the body to stay straight. in my case, any fixed body mount is going to break somewhere, and the body is always weaker than the frame...

    but seriously, maybe body lifts have more give in thier mounts for what you are speaking of?

    interesting point.:beer:
     
  9. Feb 1, 2008
    double R

    double R Member

    Reseda, CA
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    I used 1/8 inch on mine but haven't tested it since my jeep is still not running...and i strapped only at the the ends
     
  10. Feb 1, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
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    only at the ends as in the length of the leaf springs? why not all or any more than just the ends?
     
  11. Feb 1, 2008
    double R

    double R Member

    Reseda, CA
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    the mid section and the rear on my frame has that factory thin strap already and didn't want to mess with it. I removed the rear straps and replaced them with thicker steel. I was mainly concerned with the cracks at the shackle frame mounts.
     
  12. Feb 1, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
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    yeah, i know those cracks...my buddy (sierra, if you're reading this THANKS) helped me on those. it actually cracked all the way around the shackle mount. i think it was right at the point that at one more hard articulation it probably would have completly come off! probably would have taken a few tie-down straps to keep that one in place to get back home...
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2008
  13. Feb 1, 2008
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
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    My frame is 1/8" thick. Early M38A1. I bought 1/8" steel for the boxing, figuring that there is no reason for the boxing to be any thicker than the rest of the frame. I hope to get started on mine in a few weeks. If I could just get this damn trailer finished...........
     
  14. Feb 1, 2008
    Cantilope

    Cantilope Member

    My Jeep can...
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    I am using 1/8" steel for the boxing and 3/16" strap. If you strap, as said above, pull off everything and go end to end. There are a few places my frame was actually crushed up (the old CJ spring mounts). I am strapping to help repair these areas and give me a nice flat and level mounting surface for the YJ spring mounts. I'll try and get pics tomorrow of the boxing, we spent some time cutting out each section so the boxing follows the contours of the cross members. We need to paint the inside and weld it up.
     
  15. Feb 1, 2008
    4dawudz

    4dawudz Dale

    ADK NORTHERN New...
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    I like the idea of boxing the frame, but how do you treat the crossmembers? Some are boxed from the factory and some are not! On my frame I boxed the frame horns (from the factory box to the front bumper. at the rear spring front mount I boxed the section about 10" centered and C notched each end )_( kinda that shape with the top missing and stiched welded it ( no cracks after 30 yrs.). I replaced the grill area cross member with 2x4x.125 tube, reinforced the front bumper w/3/8"x1.5" flat top & bot. to the frame rails and replaced the rear bumper with 2x3x3/16, to this I tied in rear shackles, rollcage, reciever hitch and body mounts. Like I said it has lasted good for 30 yrs. but now old adge is creeping in and it's rusting from the inside out. I am replacing it as we speak! With what, you ask, I just bought the 2x4x3/16 frame rails only from throttledownkustoms.com and (because my jeep is far from stock) will add sq. and rect. tubing crossmembers as close to the heavy load areas and tie this in with a bushing mounted rollcage, 10 point!

    Oh, by the way this is a '57 CJ5 frame w/ a '46 2A body (I think the body added a LOT of stiffness to the frame, I only used 1/2" thick fiber rein. rubber pads as body mounts.

    Dale
     
  16. Feb 3, 2008
    Cantilope

    Cantilope Member

    My Jeep can...
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    Just a quick update, I just got done with my first coat of paint. Looks so smooth like I didnt do anything to this frame. However, I strapped all the hangers and boxed it in. After finding 3 extra hidden cracks, I can report this...

    I strapped it yesterday and that did very little to the flex. It was heavier, but still very flexy, almost 85% of what it was the day before. So today after the boxing, I would say it has lost most of its flex. Probably down to 15% of what it was originally. Also twice as heavy, it is now a strain to maneuver it. This may seem all bad but is seems very strong. I am happy with my results, I am confident now my body will stay where it needs. If your going to do a suspension upgrade and pull your tub, do it. I'll post a pick when it is on the suspension next weekend.
     
  17. Feb 4, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
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    right on, i'm looking forward to seeing it. so you boxed and strapped it. do you recommend that? or anyone else? i was just going to box it, but now..?

    i have some good news, i went and pulled that frame today. so now i will actually be going forward with all this talk. gonna take my time though, do it right, figure out suspension on it, then go for it. what i'm thinking about is...lifting it for sure. need the room to fit the new 33's. i'm also thinking of extending the wheelbase a little bit. probably going to push the rear axle back a little bit, which will allow me to get a longer driveshaft, less angle, and allow me to afford a little extra travel in the rear, maybe some revolver shackles?

    i will also be working towards the nice rollcage. not sure if i will be reconstructing it immediately as i would like to. but at least be able to set it up for the future. if need be i can run my current one.

    back to the suspension, i'll start a new thread on that if i can't find answers to my questions from old threads. trying to decide what is most worth while for good travel and adequate lift. things like; shackle reversal or not, 2.5" or 4" lift, cj or yj springs, if yj-then stock or lift?

    all kinds of things to contemplate. but the frame is home, that is the good news. a couple friends and i blew off the superbowl and went out to tear apart this burned up mess in the rain. i've got some rehab to do on my tools, everything got wet. but it turned out well. got the whole frame out in about 4 hours, not bad considering no air tools, no cutting tools, just all hand tools and hammers.

    :beer:
     
  18. Feb 4, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
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    i forgot to add by the way. when seeing that frame, and moving it around with part of the drivetrain on there, etc. this frame is CRAZY FLEXY. i had no idea these things were that flexible. i cant believe my body held up that good, as bad as it is. i can't wait to get it up on blocks and start playing with it. this thing is truly rubber, like cantilope said. can't wait to get it built up solid.

    :beer:
     
  19. Feb 8, 2008
    wicked4x4

    wicked4x4 HEY, watch the paint!

    Escondido, CA
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    does anybody have any great ideas on how to paint the inside of the frame during/after the boxing? i would hate to do all this work and have the bastard rust from the inside out!
    -thanks
     
  20. Feb 8, 2008
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
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    Something I have given some thought to myself. I'm thinking, maybe paint the inside of the frame and boxing material but stay back from the edges. Then paint what you can after you finish welding. I plan on holesawing numerous spots on the boxing for drainage and accessibility to wiring and stuff. It is a perplexing dilemma. The real way to do it would be to have it dipped. I hate to think about what that would cost.
     
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