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Another Dauntless Clutch Conundrum

Discussion in 'Early CJ-5 and CJ-6 Tech' started by 46ODDFIRE, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Jun 11, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
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    So I fried my throwout bearing. I hope this isn't related to my rebuilding the linkage a year ago, but we'll set that aside for now.... I have the transmission and clutch out (first time for me, so this is something of a miracle).

    But I'm not 100-percent sure about ordering replacement parts. Here's the deal:
    - '46 CJ2A
    - Dauntless 225 V6 (which is why I'm posting here and not in the "Flat-Fender Tech" forum. I hope that's the right call)
    - T18-1B transmission, Spicer 18 transfer case, Warn overdrive
    - Ron from Virginia Beach (who has been a big help - thanks, Ron) says I have an unusually deep bellhousing, a rare 1971 option, if I understood correctly.

    The parts places show a diaphragm clutch for the Dauntless, but I have a Borg and Beck three-finger style. Ron says this is necessary because of the deep bellhousing. It's also possible my dad, who did all these conversions back in the day, wanted a heavy-duty clutch.

    My clutch looks exactly like the 10.5-inch, 9-spring clutch the parts places show for the mid-'50s-to-mid-'60s Jeep trucks, station wagons and FCs.

    So: Any reason I shouldn't be ordering the truck clutch? Is this a known conversion combination? _DSC4145.jpg _DSC4147.jpg _DSC4150.jpg _DSC4153.jpg
     
  2. Jun 11, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    Nothing changed on the drivetrain side of things with the 71 bellhousing. It simply replaced the cast iron adapter that Jeep ran with a stock GM bell in earlier years. So that part makes no difference in your decision. If you can source them locally and compare what you get new with what came out that is usually the best way to go. Most of the replacements today seem to be diaphragm type pressure plates. Many V6 Jeeps got "heavy duty" clutches in the past because of most of them having 3.73 gears which are very hard on clutches with anything over a 30" tire.
     
  3. Jun 11, 2018
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Aug 14, 2006
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    That three finger Borg Beck was a factory clutch for the 1971 CJ-5.

    You looking for a complete new clutch or ?
    I have a spare NOS release bearing I can sell.
    If you want PM me.
     
  4. Jun 11, 2018
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member Sponsor

    Northern California
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    Lack of maintaining proper "Free Play" in the system is the likely culprit.........a little extra clearance is better than tight as long as you don't compromise total travel in the system to the point you cannot disengage the clutch........Checking pedal free play in high gear at freeway speed with a lite touch of the pedal with your foot will tell you all you need to know about clearance.
     
  5. Jun 11, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    Daryl: Thanks. So far, all my attempts at local sourcing has people telling me I need a diaphragm clutch. But if folks on this thread think the truck clutch is the right clutch, I can ask for that one specifically and try again. Re: the bellhousing: Just for clarification, mine does have an adapter. Does that make sense, or am I misunderstanding what you said?
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Jun 11, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    Oldtime: If it's an exact match, yeah, I'm interested. I will PM you.
     
  7. Jun 11, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    Treat me like the dummy I am. What should and shouldn't happen during this touch-on-the-clutch-highway-speed test. If nothing happens, it's too tight?
     
  8. Jun 11, 2018
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member Sponsor

    Falcon, CO
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    That is the housing Daryl is talking about. Personally I've not had any issues with the newer diaphragm clutch's I run either behind the T18 or SM465. I run LUK and Centerforce brand if that helps.
     
    71CJ54WD likes this.
  9. Jun 11, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    Warloch: Thanks. So changing to a diaphragm style won't change my release fork/pivot head/linkage requirements and geometry? I apologize for being so dense about this. I'm just afraid of causing a cascade of changes and ending deep in over my head.
     
  10. Jun 11, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    I just assumed you had a t14. Very rare option to have a t18 from a 71. Not going to find a credible parts reference at the parts counter. Probably best to replicate what was in it that you know worked.
     
  11. Jun 11, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    Aug 7, 2017
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    Daryl: Definitely a T18. It says "T18-1B," with "WC DIV" under that. I've been unable find any info about the 1-B part. I am not dead sure the transmission comes from a '71. My dad and his friends worked on it periodically from 1969 through the early '70s. Anyway, I do lean toward replacing everything with exact matches. I'm just having a hard time figuring out what might be an exact match. The Walck's 10.5-inch replacement for Jeep truck clutches seems to be the closest...

    Pressure Plate 10 1/2" 6-226 Super Hurricane & 6-230 OHC Tornado

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Jun 11, 2018
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member Sponsor

    Falcon, CO
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    So here are some thoughts for you - When I try to match a setup on a previously running good rig, you have your 'standard' measurements, diameter(s), spline count, thickness of disc, also add thickness of the Pressure Plate, Ride Height of the Throw out bearing, thickness and shape of the throw out bearing. The throw out can/will change between a borg beck and diaphragm type of PPlate, and you can adjust the run between the PPlate height and TOBearing thickness. I have at times ordered a couple different clutches and then put them together to find the setup with the right measurements for what I needed.
     
  13. Jun 11, 2018
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member Sponsor

    Northern California
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    All clutches first have springs that apply pressure to the pressure plate that helps to lock the clutch disc up..........all clutches also have centrifugal weight that is normally the weight of the fingers or the weight of the diaphragm fingers..........as the clutch spins to higher RPM's these fingers naturally raise up as they are mounted on a fulcrum point back inside the cover.........as they raise they continue to add more centrifugal pressure to the clutch plate..........

    Statically motor off..........measure the free play at the top of the travel of the clutch pedal...........How much does the pedal travel before it requires more force ? That travel is a combination of whatever slack or wear there is in the complete linkage system which includes the throw out bearing................lets say at motor off.....you had a 1/2" of free play at the pedal............when going down the road in high gear at freeway speed more than likely that 1/2" clearance will be gone...............Why? because the fingers have grown in height via the centrifugal weight and therefore all the clearance is now history and the clutch will slip as additional load is applied.

    The test I mentioned above at highway speed is a sure way to see if you have enough free play by lightly putting your foot on the pedal and feel if there is still free play / no resistance in the system which is a good thing or by lightly touching the pedal you can feel resistance or hear the motor RPM increase which then the clutch is slipping..........which is just simply telling you , it needs more free play at the pedal at rest...........again throw out bearings are not designed to be running full time against the fingers of the pressure plate........they are a part time bearing and when treated that way will out live the clutch.

    Clutches due to wear on the friction surfaces and also wear in the linkage & need to be adjusted periodically........chances are your clutch system may have just needed an adjustment? as I'm assuming it did not fully release when stopped or was hard shifting?
     
    Bowbender likes this.
  14. Jun 12, 2018
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Member

    Louisville, Ky
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    Put a grease fitting on the throw out bearing, need a hole in the bell housing to access the grease fitting. Every oil change, a couple pumps of grease. When I ran off road, several guy did this, don't know if it was done because of running creeks and throw out bearing was in water a lot, or some other issue. It was done on Intermediate Jeeps with V-8's. Talking to a big truck mechanic and he said they have this set up.

    My V-6 with a clutch cable, does not have free play that I can tell. I think the rubber boot around the clutch fork is keeping every thing tight. Will do the high way test when it is on the road.
     
  15. Jun 12, 2018
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. Sponsor

    cordele, Ga.
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    It is important to have the hold back spring in place as well. This spring pulls the T/O back away from the P/P and holds it there. People who ride the clutch pedal also eat through T/O bearings quickly.
     
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  16. Jun 12, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    Aug 7, 2017
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    Thanks. Along those lines, because there are so many different throwout bearing options, I'm thinking of getting the adjustable throwout bearing from Novak.
     
  17. Jun 12, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    Got it. Thanks for walking me through it. (It makes me sick to think this was probably self-inflicted....)
     
  18. Jun 12, 2018
    46ODDFIRE

    46ODDFIRE Member

    Newport News, VA
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    When I took possession of the Jeep, that spring was missing. The Jeep hadn't been driven for years, though, so I don't know if its absence contributed to any problems (I added the spring when I re-did the linkage last spring). I never ride the clutch, for two reasons: 1. Us boys were taught not to at a young age. 2. It hurts my old left knee to have my leg in that position for any length of time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  19. Jun 12, 2018
    CJ Joe

    CJ Joe Truckhaven Tough!

    Vista, CA
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    We seem to have the bellhousing adapter identification worked out but just for the record, below is the more common b'housing with iron adapter (with T14/D18/OD).

    FWIW I recently replaced my clutch disc (and converted to hydro) and bought the Novak adjustable throwout bearing. It was very helpful. As Warloch says add the thicknesses of the components prior to install. Throwout bearings are available in different heights. Having an adjustable one just saved me time guessing and ordering bearings and got it exactly where it needed to be.

    [​IMG]
     
    OrangeCJ5 likes this.
  20. Jun 12, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    Always double check the pilot bushing, especially on any transplant setup.
     

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