1965 CJ-5 Frame Cracks and Potential Winch Mounting.

I recently purchased a 1965 stock low milage CJ-5 and want to mount a Warn MX 8000. Purchased the winch, winch plate and mounting brackets. I am being advised to box the frame channels all the way back to the front crossmember. While inspecting the existing frame channels I noticed a crack in the lower frame rail flange in front of the spring hanger going forward at a 45 degree angle. This has happened on both sides. I suspect it occurred because the front bumper is attached to the frame very rigidly with several bolts and when the frame flexes the bumper restrains movement, or tries to. My question is, if I box the frame to the forward crossmember and increase rigidity an I just moving the prolem aft?
If I mount the winch plate using the angle brackets bolted thru the frame channel web, it would seem that would increase regidity a great deal. How were the winches mounted in 1965? Were the frames boxed from the factory? Thanks in advance!

 

No Factory boxing of frames in 1965.........and no Winches in 1965 other than some old military PTO styles that guys retrofitted...........the early Bellview the predecessor to the Warn brand probably came around in the late 60's.

Yes you want to box the frame, the original bumpers were just sheet metal and riveted to the main rails............so a good strong foundation is necessary and depending on whether or not an upgrade in steering to a Saginaw gear box is in your future that may change the way you box the drivers side rail......by boxing the rail back to the radiator cross member it does spread the load out over a longer distance which is what you want.........if your plans are to tug on that frame allot some side plates on the outside are always a good Idea...........other wise V out the cracks, weld them up and build a good sturdy mount for the Winch.

 

Beautiful work. Are we looking out the outside or the inside? If you box the inside do you go all the way back to the existing bixed section.
I am 72 yars old and just bought it as a project and to keep me busy. No rubicon trips planned. I just want to be able to rescue myself occasionally. With the winch I got a heavy mounting plate (stamped with a W) and from a jeep wrecking yard, bought some angle mounts that bolt to the plate and to the outside web of the frame rails. Probably from a later cj or wrangler? The holes don't match those in the frame rails but the width is correct and the straddle the outside of the frame rails just fine Two long bolts came with the brackets in the front holes as if they were intended to go thru a boxed section, and two short bolts came in the rear holes as if they bolted directly thru the web (not boxed? the top of the bracket cantelivers over the top of the bumper so the fairlead is clear of the bumper. All help and advice is appreciated as I never had one of these before.
Bruce Stevens, Napa, ca.

 

Welcome Aboard Bruce from Napa........I'm in the Bay Area.......That .125 plate is on the outside and is in addition to the inside plates and would only be needed if you were planning on tugging on those frame horns allot with a Winch.
The inside frame rails at the very least should be boxed on both sides back to the original cross-member that the Radiator and Grill is hanging on.........even a right angle gusset in each corner is a good Idea........A winch is a great tool to have on board and can exert some pretty extreme force on the front end especially if the Jeep is buried.........I've seen plenty of guys bend those front rails up especially pulling at an angle.
Post some pictures of what your doing and what you have to work with and I'm sure we all here can give you a little help to get it on there correctly...........

Make sure you do a good job fixing that crack and before boxing it in you could even lay a plate over the crack once fixed and also weld it up prior to covering it...........Advance adapters sells a kit for boxing the front rails with the plates pretty well cut to size if you do not have a way to cut them out.............Not sure of the steering you currently have in there now but if you have the original Ross steering with the gear mounted below the floor just forward of the drivers side firewall and were inclined to perhaps change that as others have done in the early CJ Jeeps at a later date some of that work should be thought out now prior to boxing in the drivers side front frame rail............Post some pictures.

 

Yep, what Tarry said. weld it up, box it and dont be shy about the winch mounting plate. A couple extra pieces of steel welded to it isn't going to hurt you.You may want to reinforce the rear of the frame as well depending on how you plan to use the winch. It is a don't ask me how I know thing. My PTO winch would probably rip my Jeep apart, actually it did try to do that more than once. Several days of repair work needed.
Read up on proper winch procedures, there is probably a few more tools and supplies that you will find useful.
I've been using this Jeep and winch for over 30 years, I'm still learning things.

 

One of the first things I learned is once I hooked up my cable, I'm in control. Don't let the person in the other vehicle do anything unless I tell them what to do. Once in a while a bit of aid may help.
A few years ago we were out in the Indian Creek area near to the Needles district. A friend managed to get his Jeep stuck in the sand going downhill. I got my Jeep up there, looked at the situation and backed my Jeep uphill until I dug myself into some 8 inch holes, cable out, power in. Bob decided he would help by putting his Jeep in reverse and hitting the gas. All he did was to slide his Jeep about 15 feet to the left, a steeper area. I got him out.
That night around the campfire Bob was braging about how he helped me get his Jeep out of the sand, A old coot friend of ours just looked at him and said "Face it Bob, you just F****d up"

 

Not sure how to post pictures. Most forums you can upload from your computer.

 

They need to be first loaded into an offsite system like photo-bucket and then transferred here to this site.........do a search on this site for the exact procedure , been covered here many times.

 

If I box back to the radiator cross member, doesn't that stiffen the front 18" put all the stress back at the point the boxing ends? At the cross member? Seems like that would introduce cracks at that point.

 

Entirely possible. There have been in depth discussions of this issue here before, try "search."

Check out an M38A1 frame if you can. They are boxed for a winch mount.

Otherwise, make the winch-bed itself massively bulletproof, independent of the frame.
I put the front bumper against a tree if I can, as close to center as possible.
As said, a PTO winch is capable of ripping the frame out of the vehicle. Use it judiciuously.

 

Entirely possible. There have been in depth discussions of this issue here before, try "search."

Check out an M38A1 frame if you can. They are boxed for a winch mount.

Otherwise, make the winch-bed itself massively bulletproof, independent of the frame.
I put the front bumper against a tree if I can, as close to center as possible.
As said, a full size winch is capable of ripping the frame out of the vehicle. Use it judiciuously.

 

I think your "Over-thinking" this...........The Idea is to take some of the stress off of the weak un-boxed front horns and Yes move it rearward where you have something more solid to tie into.........if the joint and the weld at the cross-member is done correctly it will not create a point where the weld will break or stress especially if you were to put two 90 degree gussets in each corner!..........keep in mind you still have the outside frame rails forming a continuous strength member that in theory stretches rearward to the end of the frame........making that a box up front with a strong bumper forming the front of the box will be plenty strong for average pulling of your Jeep..........as long as it's not buried to the axles as this again is rolling weight versus dead weight............
But in extreme situations where lets say a friends vehicle is buried to the frame rails and you have tied the rear of your Jeep off to a stationery object like a large tree or rock and your now trying to pull him out that is when the Winch is trying to pull away from your front frame rails as your vehicle is now stationery and considered Dead Weight.........then you have better done your homework and all you can do to secure the winch properly while transferring stress along as much of the frame as possible as your complete frame end to end now becomes part of the pull.
If you look at the picture I posted earlier that is prior to welding the outside plates on....... when welded it would be tied directly into the welded tabs that hold the front cross-member on to the frame........if the winch pulls away it would take everything with it.........In that case a snatch block and perhaps even a second Jeep if available would all be hooked up to the buried vehicle.........making this an all or nothing pull where burning up your winch is possible and also breaking a cable.........that is probably more extreme than you need to be, but then again I don't know how your going to use this.

 

I will probably use it to self rescue if necessary and let the "big boys" do the heroics. Good info. When boxing aft toward the first crossmember, do you jusr end the boxed section at the crossmember?

 

Yes.............make sure your plate has a good fit , up to the cross member and the frame rails with no more than 1/16-3/32" of gap to weld to........make also sure the metal is clean,,,,,,,no rust or oil!
As mentioned you could also weld in a horizontal 90 degree gusset say 3x3"x.188 in each corner where it best fits........that will tie the corners in at the Cross member and with that and a sturdy bumper up front bolted to the frame horns you should be fine.

I don't think I seen you mention what type steering you have or if a change is in your future to a later Saginaw Steering gear Box..............if it is then the necessary prep work should be done first to that Left side fame rail prior to boxing it in..............

This picture has a sway bar and a steering gear brace also in that corner.......but I'm sure you get the Idea. No 90 degree gusset here because I also have the braces on the outside.

 

"and you have tied the rear of your Jeep off to a stationery object like a large tree or rock and your now trying to pull him out"

I would try REALLY hard to avoid ever having the Jeep itself used as a tension member in the winching set-up. Making it the weakest link between 'fixed' objects is a good way to wreck the frame.

Been there, done that.

 

Common Pete , no sense of adventure?.........I do agree it would be best to avoid that but , Sometimes when the pulling vehicle is uphill , tying off is the only choice so that you don't also get pulled into the Abyss..........

 

Or let someone else do it.

 

Nice work. I will probably stay with the stock steering. My jeep is never going to be like some I have seen. I'm way too old and would never get it done.

 

As I said, been there, done that.
As Thoreau said, once acquainted with the principle, further examples serve no purpose.

If you do have to tie off, go easy, go smart. For instance, use a double-line and snatch block to a BFT. Halves the pull on the jeep.