Steering Options For '59 Cj5

ok, Since we got a little bit of a discussion about steering going in another thread, and since I dont want to just hijack that thread and make it about me, Ill start a new thread here about the options I have for MY Jeep.

Up for discussion is the 1959 CJ5 with a Ford 302 swap. I cannot keep the Ross box. Its in the way of the exhaust, its notchy, and it needs a rebuild. Thats at least two strikes against it. Its GONE. (as soon as possible at least)

Option one: Herm's kit. Pluses, to me at least are its at least semi-bolt on. No real mods to the frame needed, but the linkage to the wheels can be a bit hinky according to some here (yes I have done some reading). No crossmember notching needed, but I may not have room for a PS pump.... Column is easy to move/connect.

Option two: Saginaw box conversion. Yes I have gone through the thread on this, but most there have had to notch their front crossmember for fitment. I do not want to have to do this. Its already been modified for fan fitment, and I really dont have the tooling to cut and properly notch for shaft clearance. Multiple u-joints in the steering shaft also dont inspire confidence for a bind free experience. Would like to use an AA adapter plate, but not sure of fitment.

Option two, mod 1: Use a Saginaw box and mount off a later jeep (72 and up). this looks like it will put the box lower, and not have to notch the crossmember (BIG PLUS), however I am unsure about how well this BEEFY BEAST of a mount will mate with an earlier frame. The ones I see available are 3/8"-1/2" plate fabricated, so not readily able to be modified to fit an earlier frame, and I really dont want to go down the rabbit hole of jacking with the frame.

Option three: something I havent seen yet. We appear to have some awesome fabricators here (I aint one of them....) what did you do to get better steering without butchering the frame/crossmembers?

 

Go Saginaw if you are doing it. Tried and true.

 

thats just it, it may be "tried and true", but it appears no two builds are anywhere near the same. Makes the engineering for a critical system a one off.... I prefer to not be the guniea pig on stuff like that, so want to go with off the shelf parts if possible. This Jeep may not be "daily driver" but it will be close. Its not going to be a trails only rig that failure only means a long walk home. Driven on the street has a bit higher stakes involved.

if there were a "standard" way of doing it, my take may be a bit different, and there would be a Saginaw box hanging on the frame already.

If anyone has input into a "off-the-shelf" type Saginaw installation that doesnt require cutting the crossmember or excessive custom fabrication, Im all ears!!!

 

If you are that uncomfortable with this project, just keep/rebuild the ross

 

This is basically what I did. Clears the factory V6 exhaust and no frame mods required. Yes it hangs lower than some but it's still higher than the leaf spring right next to it and the axle directly behind it. It's survived some pretty hard core trails in CO & UT without a problem. One thing I did was bolt it vertically through my winch mounting plate which gives it a lot more side to side stability than if it was just attached to the frame rail.

 

how hard was that option getting it to fit the early frame? Drill a few holes, or figure out rail height to get it to fit? I could care less about it hanging a bit below the rail, thats how it was in the later CJ's. Im more concerned about frame integrity and driveability. Its going to be a cramped area, so moving the box forward to the Saginaw position is helpful.

 

it’s only partly not wanting to cut the frame, on a street driven vehicle it also boils down to liability. Doesn’t take much of an ambulance chaser to tear apart a “self engineered” steering system in the event of an accident to making it “your fault”. With a “store bought” setup, while you are still likely to be “raw dogged” in court, you at least can look back and say “this mod is common and generally regarded as safe and strong”. Most of us like the Vice Grip Garage and Roadkill style “ drive any $hitbox home vids, real life dictates we all can’t do that. In fact, should any of those shows end in tragedy, their own words will not go over well in a court of law (and often not road legally registered/insured is just another nail in that coffin).

that’s why I desire to not be a guinea pig on a safety critical system.

 

Most of us that build these things have an idea in mind, think it through, take measurements, and at some point just kind of go for it…deal with challenges as they emerge. I’m not sure any of the common modifications are supported by some greater safety authority. So yes, there’s risk involved.

Can you weld decently? Cut metal? If not, are you interested in learning these skills? You don’t need to be a master fabricator but you should trust your work. Not sure how any home fabricated classic vehicle would hold up to explicit legal scrutiny in a worse-case accident scenario.

I know of failures from Herms kit. Personally, I’m a fan of power Saginaw. It takes some work, time and patience but it’s worth it. Since your Jeep is already modified with an engine swap, it’s going to be a one-off custom deal.

 

Kinda doubt the cast bracket from a '72-75 CJ will fit in the frame rail. Maybe someone has done it. Anyway, these cast brackets are not plentiful. The '76 and newer CJs use a bracket that's pressed/folded steel. I presume you could modify one of these brackets to fit the frame rail. IIRC these are available as repops from the aftermarket, and as "heavy duty" replacements from MORE and others.

'72-75 bracket - these come in 4-bolt and 3-bolt styles: https://www.ebay.com/itm/226558392024

I thought the favored parts were the brackets from machinist Mike (mcruff)?

 

doesnt look like the cast bracket for the 72-75 will work, BUT, the pressed steel on MAY. What looks more promising is a YJ bracket that another member has on theirs. Only mounts to the rail, and stays out of the crossmember, so modifying it is a bit easier, and leaves the steering stub below the crossmember. They are super cheap on Ebay, so I will likely pick one up for $hits and giggles to see how well it will work. Being out $30 bucks beats paying $150 for a maybe through other sources

 

I can both weld (decently) and have some metal cutting abilities. That isnt the issue. My main concern with the usual Saginaw installation is the cutting of the crossmember, even boxed, its significantly thinner in cross section than original, and that has me believing that its going to flex more. Not good if its the furthest forward structural member.

Saginaw has the benefit of being used on nearly every GM product for the better part of 3 decades, so there are plenty of parts and options. Using the YJ bracket as stated above may also mean tie rods are "off the shelf" meaning I only need to fabricate a column connection, and thats also all off the shelf parts.

Most of the "home built" stuff would be dubious in court, but using a "standard" configuration does say something.... You cannot eiliminate the risk, but not being a one of one does say something.

Herm's kit does solve the fabrication issue, but I tend to agree, the welds look a bit "snotty" om the kit pictures I have seen. That doesnt inspire full confidence. That configuration also would be better for some things, but I would not be able to fit a PS pump.... If im gonna go the whole way, I may as well get power steering......

 

I'm glad you said you can weld. My vote is the tried and true Saginaw. Yes, it's some work, but a crossmember tunnel is not that difficult in the big scheme. You can hole saw through with a rigged up tubing notcher jig. Then weld in a 2" sleeve. It does not comprimise the integrity. In fact when you do it, you will find the frame to crossmember cracks, fix them, and increase the integrity. I have also seen problems with Herm's kit, and I have wondered why people use it, when a good Saggy conversion, the old fashioned way, is doable for the average jeeper-fabricator.

 

Avoid doing business with Herm at all cost. Get the advance adapter Saginaw mounting bracket and do it yourself. If you cant weld you can do all the mock up work and have someone else weld it up

 

That's what I used on mine. I had to cut it down some to fit in the frame rail.

 

Note the eBay sale fo the bracket I linked above is the less desirable 3-bolt version. Interesting that the seller could ask that much for what people in decades past were removing and replacing with the sturdier 4-bolt bracket.

Sorry I have not gone through the steering thread page by page - commenting based on what I know about the later steering. Not criticizing what Doug has done, just expressing my thoughts.

The cast bracket is secured to both the frame and the front crossmember. If you look at a '72 or later Jeep, you'll see that, with the Saginaw steering, the area behind the front bumper was filled with a beefy crossmember that supports the frame horns and the steering gear. Note that the cast bracket both bolts to the frame rail and up into this new cross-member.

I suspect the frame horns on an early Jeep are not strong enough to support a steering gear without some added help. The CJ frame is flexible to begin with, and I recall that you really need the front bumper on these Jeeps to support against twisting of the frame horns by the springs. I recall someone here took the whole front crossmember fromn a later Jeep and grafted it into an early CJ. This seems like a good plan, since the crossmember was designed to support the Saginaw steering - if you could find a donor. Is the frame width of a YJ the same as an early? Certainly the Intermediate and Late CJs are the same.

 

The only steering box mount I would buy is this one from Advanced Adapters.
https://www.advanceadapters.com/5416

You will need to tunnel through the radiator crossmember for the steering shaft, there are plenty of photos on this forum of that work.
The above AA bracket gives you the strongest option as it centers the box on the frame rail and helps mitigate leverage that twists the frame.

 

do you happen to have any pictures of the bracket mounting.

Ive been mulling the different options (and at least trying to listen to the vocal adherents of different methods). Its really between biting the bullet and cutting the crossmember (which I still dont like) and using a very well documented AA setup (but damn its pricy), or going below the crossmember either with a late CJ or YJ bracket (YJ bracket may be too low for the pitman/drag link to work at stock height)
I may be talked into modifying the bracket to fit INSIDE the frame rail, as opposed to underneath it for a bit more "central" installation (and boxing around it....)

This is a link to a YJ bracket, would bolt to the bottom and also to a boxed front section crossmember.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155391350532

 

Ive been mulling this option as well as the others listed above (and was really the first one I looked at. AA has some great documentation on their site for sure.

 

The YJ appears to just bolt to the frame rail (and is one reason I am considering it). the outer frame section will have to be boxed (and the outer drivers side is the only section back to under the tub that hasnt already been boxed on this Jeep) I have no issue (and would like) to put a HEAVY front bumper on the Jeep, not just for frame stability, but also for use with a winch and/or a reciever for moving trailers and such around my yard.

Problem with looking at a later Jeep, is I DONT HAVE ONE, and CJ's in general are pretty rare here to peek at. 99% of what you see are no more than a couple years old, so completely useless for my purposes

 

Not rocket science to just whittle out your own mount. Probably can be done with a drill and jig saw but a drill press and bandsaw would make the task a lot easier and more accurate. This is the last one I made for the 3B using a bit of an oddball Saginaw box.