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Bell Housing/t90 To Pontiac Adaptability?

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by fyrmn, Aug 16, 2021.

  1. Aug 16, 2021
    fyrmn

    fyrmn Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    High Desert AZ
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    Need some advice concerning the following.
    Have a Pontiac 195 4 cylinder (from a 61 tempest) and want to mate it to a T90. I am told an early BOP bell housing will fit the engine. Any Pontiac experts out there or has anyone tried this set up?
    Would like to get it mocked up for fitment purposes or perhaps this is another nightmare in the making. Appreciate any advice!
     
  2. Aug 16, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    The BOP pattern is distinctive. If the engine is a BOP pattern, you can post a pic and we can recognize the pattern. You'll need a T-90 adapter to a GM engine. The BOP bell won't bolt to a T-90 without an adapter.
     
  3. Aug 16, 2021
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

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    My experience with Pontiac is all V8's, but im pretty sure your engine is 1/2 of a 389...
    The 64 and older Pontiac has a starter that bolts to the bellhousing, like a Ford. You'll need an early Pontiac bellhousing, a long input shaft for the trans, and the adapter between the two. Keep in mind that a Pontiac starter is on the driver's side, it may cause issues with your steering.
     
  4. Aug 16, 2021
    fyrmn

    fyrmn Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Will post a pic tomorrow. Thanks
     
  5. Aug 16, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Member: Club Foot Dad Club. 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Just because you have it does not make it a good choice. Especially old engines that are not supported by anyone. You may find a better alternative is to sell the engine and buy a more commonly used engine for jeep swaps.

    IMHO your going from a very purposeful offroad f134 to something that may only be ok on road and off.
     
  6. Aug 16, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    I've seen more than one of those Pontiac slant 4's in Jeeps back in the 70's. Parts were hard to find for them back then. I remember the Chevy II 153 4 cyl being more popular at the time because of that.
     
  7. Aug 16, 2021
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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    A Pontiac slant 4 is indeed half of a 389, if you have a complete engine the mechanical parts that would be hard to find intake and such should be there.
    Although this is engine is heavy it has about twice the power of the F head 110-165 hp and 190-215 lb ft or torque. Probably revs much easier than the old F head.
     
  8. Aug 16, 2021
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman

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  9. Aug 17, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Not to be snippy..... but Ill take the Pontiac any day over the 134..... The base model knocks the pants of the Fhead, more hopped up versions of the Pontiac rival the dauntless v6 in HP and torque.

    The brainchild of auto industry legend John DeLorean,[6] then the head of a design team responsible for the birth of the Tempest line, the Trophy 4 produced 110 hp (82 kW) (gross) at 3800 rpm and 190 lb⋅ft (258 N⋅m) at 2000 rpm with a single-barrel carburetor.

    L134 Go Devil was updated with the F-head to become the F134 in 1950.[4][5] This engine produced a gross output of 75 hp (56 kW; 76 PS) at 4000 rpm and 114 lb⋅ft (155 N⋅m) of torque at 2000 rpm with a 7.5:1 compression ratio.
     
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  10. Aug 17, 2021
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2021 Sponsor

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    A BOP bell housing should fit this engine and the ones I have seen had the bump out for the starter on both sides.

    I may have an AA adaptor for mating a T90 to a BOP bell housing, but I will have to look for it.

    While that slant four would have plenty of power it would not be my choice for an engine swap into a Jeep.

    "I remember the Chevy II 153 4 cyl being more popular at the time because of that."

    The Chevy 4 cylinder is an excellent candidate for a swap, adaptors are readily available new or used, and since they still make this engine for boats and other applications most parts are still available. I had one of these in a 63 Chevy II I drove for many years, it was just about bullet proof and had plenty of power. There are a lot of them out there sitting in junk boats, and the only main difference with a marine engine is the exhaust manifold is water cooled, but you can find manifolds or headers to take care of that.

    Seen a lot of Ford 4 cylinder engines from Pintos, Mustang II, and Ranger pickups adapted to Jeeps, and those are great engines if you can find one.
     
  11. Aug 17, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Member: Club Foot Dad Club. 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    I swapped out my f-134 but My 4.3 is not "hopped up". my 4.3 has more torque and hp as it is. Mine starts when it's -10f and when it is 114f. It is affordable to swap, maintain, and drive.

    I don't get to drive it as much as I like having more kids than seats. but when I can drive it. I don't have to fiddle with anything under the hood because the gas is old or the points are corroded. It takes the cheap gas and the cheap oil.
    My pregnant wife wasn't worried about driving the 4.3l when my wagon was down and I needed her Truck to get the kids. (Maybe she's just awesome)
    Long story short, we really like the TBI 4.3 :beer:
     
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  12. Aug 17, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Nothing wrong with the 4.3 either. This thread however is about the Pontiac Trophy 4 engine that the OP already has in his possession. The 195 is a Pontiac 389 cylinder head sitting on 2/3rds of a v8 block. It can be hopped up to make a coupled hundred hp fairly easily. They were outlawed at our local circle track in the 4 cylinder division because they thumped the pinto, iron duke and toyota guys too hard.
     
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  13. Aug 17, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Member: Club Foot Dad Club. 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    I guess my biggest question (i'm obviously not very familiar with this one for swaps)
    Does this 4cyl have good low end behavior and are the original 4cyl gears appropriate for the new engine? Does it use the typical v8 clutch assembly (opportunity for a decently heavy flywheel and clutch) and being half a v8 it would need to be rather long.
     
  14. Aug 17, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Member: Club Foot Dad Club. 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Question for @fyrmn
    What do you want to do with this jeep, like how will you use it?
     
  15. Aug 17, 2021
    fyrmn

    fyrmn Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Here is a stock pic of the rear of a trophy 4. Can’t get my pics to load up as they are too big. The shown bh
    Was for the original Tempest application. The starter actually attaches in the upper left side of the image. Second image you can see the starter location to the right of the distributor. As Someone mentioned a standard BOP bell housing has starter locations on both the lower left and right side or at least that’s what I’ve seen. As For use, trail purposes and a pension for the strange and faster on the highway. I don’t have plans to hot rod this, but they have that potential. As I mentioned in my original post if I could just get the drive train mocked up, Then I could see what difficulties may lie ahead as I try to fit it into an early cj6 frame. D5DCF10C-3EB0-440F-85F2-3927E6784998.jpeg E003E8DF-890E-41B1-802C-3E269A2FDAAD.jpeg
     
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  16. Aug 17, 2021
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman

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    Personally i think its awesome, stick it in there. With a bop bellhousing it should be easy to mate to a t90 with the usual gm adapters. I like the high starter mounting and would fab something using that bellhousing though.
    I'd consider using a 3.50 first gm 3 speed adapted to the tcase though, especially since you have the length of a 6. No adapter to the bellhousing, gm clutch components, a better 1st gear and a stronger transmission.
     
  17. Aug 17, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Member: Club Foot Dad Club. 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    That's one way to center the weight of the power train.

    Two concerns:
    1. The high mount starter will definitely interfere with thru the floor brakes.
    2. Length will need the radiator preshrunk removed and radiator support cut out forcing a Steering swap.
     
  18. Aug 17, 2021
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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    The pedals are a non issue, remember that bellhousing fits the dauntless, the starter is irrelevant as it already works with a v6 in there and the high mounted starter would be well above pedals. I doubt the Pontiac is actually any longer than the factory F head, it could even be shorter, just mounting the radiator slightly forward may be all you need, just like using a Buick 340 or 350 v8.
     
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  19. Aug 18, 2021
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

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    The back of that engine doesn't look like a standard BOP pattern to me (might just be due to the weird starter location) and the back of the bellhousing is definitely not the normal GM pattern.
     
  20. Aug 18, 2021
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman

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    Pontiac's Half-V8 Was Simultaneously Great And Terrible
     
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