Help With My Dauntless Timing

OK..... The V6 starts... runs rough but I drove it 18 miles to town and back... when going up a small hill... it had no power and would bog down, in second gear... if I gave it gas it would lose all power and almost die..... so I drove there and back in first gear... as long as the revs were up in first it could pull the hills.... not in second... So...... I figure from reading this forum, that my mixture adjustment was way off or I had bad plugs or my timing is way off, or all three....... So today, I hand turned the crank pulley to line up the mark with 0 TDC...... and took out # 1 spark plug (first one on the drivers side).... and stuck a screw driver in there and marked it's depth.... then I hand turned the crank pulley so the timing mark, left The TDC mark several inches either direction.... and the screw driver went deeper, when going either direction..... this tells me that the #1 piston is at the very top of it's stroke when the mark is on 0 TDC(checked points and they were open .016)........... so far good, But when I took off the prestolite distributor cap the rotor was NOT pointing at the #1 wire or #1 nipple in the cap..... it is pointing at #4 (about 180 degrees off)........... So rather than pull the distributor out and rotate it to point at #1 wire on the cap... I move all the wires according to firing order so that #1 wire is now in the nipple that the rotor is pointing at... then I moved all rest of the wires into their proper firing order around the cap 1-6-5-4-3-2
Tried to start it... but it would not fire up... but back fired once..... Ok... I guess that means that I need to pull up the distributor a little, and rotate it, so that the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug wire nipple/contact on the distributor cap... Correct..??? then move all the wires back to their following firing order...
After I move the distributor to point at #1 nipple/wire when pulley mark is lined up with 0 TDC and #1 piston is at the top of it's stroke... then the points should be just fully open (set at .016).......... Is there ANYTHING I need to know about pulling up the distributor and rotating it..????
I need to know if I have this figured out about the timing & moving the distributor... TODAY sometime.... so PLEASE advise me a.s.a.p..... thanks, Sunny

 

Don't pull the distributor. Put the wires back where they were, start it, and adjust the timing with a timing light is my suggestion.

Ignition timing being off can produce the exact symptoms you describe, but it would not run at all if it was as far off as you seemed to think, as was proven when you moved the wires around 180 degrees. It won't run because you are now 180 degrees off.

When you had #1 at TDC and the rotor was pointing at #4, I believe #1 was at end of exhaust stroke. You do know that the piston comes to TDC twice ?

 

Old pappy...... I thought that I had read here somewhere that in the 4 cylinder and the inline 6 engines the piston came to TDC twice.. but the V6 did not...... so , from what you are saying... If I continued to rotate the crank pulley mark around again 360 degrees... and the #1 piston was at TDC again... my rotor would be pointing at #1 spark plug wire contact on the distributor...... as it should... Correct..???
I live and drive it at 5,000 to 7,000 ft elevation...... so what timing setting would you recommend id the manual says 0 TDC for the prestolite distributor...???

 

This is an odd-fire engine? If so, recall that the distributor rotation in degrees is 45-75-45-75-45-75 so that it has a phase that must be aligned with the firing order. If you have it set up so that the crank rotation is out of phase with the distributor rotation, it won't run well. Unlike an even-fire engine, there are only half of the distributor positions that will be in phase with the crank; the other half will be out of phase (ie 45-75-45-75-45-75 versus 75-45-75-45-75-45).

So you need (1) TDC on cylinder #1 on the compression stroke, (2) the distributor rotor pointing to the #1 plug wire with the correct firing order, and (3) the plug wires in phase with the crank rotation.

 

timgr.... I Now have the TDC on #1 cylinder on the COMPRESSION stroke.... and the #1 plug wire aligned to the rotor pointing at it..... It fired right up... and I am letting it warm up right now....
Now that I have all the wires back on the Distributor in their proper rotation cycle 1-6-5-4-3-2........ Is that what you mean by "(3) the plug wires in phase with the crank rotation."...?????
What would you set the timing at for 5,000 to 7,000 ft Elevation...???

 

Four stroke engines hit TDC twice with each fire of the spark plug.
1. Piston at TDC, valves closed, plug fires exploding the compressed fuel mixture, forcing piston down.
2. Piston is at bottom of stoke, intake valve is closed, exhaust valve open. Piston moves up pushing burnt exhaust out.
3. Piston is at TDC, exhaust valve closes, intake opens. Piston goes down the cylider and draws in new fuel mixture.
4. Piston at the bottom of the stroke, valves are closed. Piston travels up and compresses the fuel mixture.
When the piston hits TDC again Plug fires and the cycle starts over. If your distributor is 180 deg off your plugs are firing on empty cylinders= no bang!

 

I was hesitant to ask the question thinking it might offend you, but apparently you read something that was wrong, so it is good to clear that up.

You can't rely on everything you read, especially on the Internet, because people who don't know what they are talking about can still write.

Nick explained the four stroke engine very well, and all four stroke engines have the same four strokes as he described regardless of the number of cylinders.

If your engine is the "odd fire" Timgr explained the odd part. It is because the earlier versions of this V6 were adapted from an 8 cylinder Buick engine with little more redesign than hacking the front two cylinders off. The later versions are called "even fire" and they did this by changing the crankshaft. As Timgr explains the odd fire had a very unusual distributor which actually skips the missing two cylinders. It is why the odd fire has that distinct rumble which sounds like it has a performance cam, when it doesn't.

Nice looking Chevy Truck!

 

Odd fire distributors for these engines do indeed have a specific tower for the number 1 cylinder. My Mallory distributor cap is actually labeled 1 and you have to line your distributor up accordingly when you stab it in the engine. You can’t just move the wires around like an even fired v8 or such.

 

Thank you all for your help.... please don't ever worry about offending me.... I am not a mechanic.... I know very little.... and have alot to learn...... I think I have it correct now... I don't think that I can have it wrong, if........... I have the crank mark lined up at 0 TDC and the rotor is pointing at #1 plug wire terminal on the distributor....... and then following the clock-wise rotation, I have all the other pl ug wires in their proper firing order....... I did time it with a timing light just now and set the timing at 10, because of my 5,000-7,000' elevation... this was done with the carb vacuum plugged and the distributor vacuum plugged/capped...... set at 10...... but when I hooked back up the vacuum hose from carb to vacuum advance canister...... the timing light mark moved beyond the 10 mark to about 13.... and then when I revved it up a little, there is a flat spot or pause.... and the timing light mark went below the 10 and then as it revved beyond the pause, the timing mark accelerated beyond 15 as the engine accelerated.......... Does this mean that my vacuum advance is working properly ...??? or Not...??? could the flat spot/pause be poorly functioning accelerator pump on the carb...??? the 2g carb is a rebuilt one newly purchased from Ebay.... hopefully done right ......... any advice on how to determine what is causing the pause would be appreciated......... the photo is my recently built 1969 CJ5 Jeep odd fire Dauntless in disguise....... as a 1928 Chevrolet truck I don't like the color of the wheels either..... will change that soon...............

 

late to party . as usual
is this where you lined up . blue tape is #1

 

Twin2.... I see that your blue tape #1 is the terminal right above the clip that holds the Distributor cap on......... My #1 wire is plugged into the next one down, (to the left of the blue tape wire).....
If mine is wrong (one terminal off) would it still start and run well without a load....? and if my rotor is pointing at the wrong terminal (one off), when the crank mark is lined up with 0 TDC on the timing marks...... would I need to pull up the distributor and rotate it to the next terminal....? or simply move the plug wires over one terminal on the cap...?? it sounds like the odd fire V6 (which I have), would need on be on the correct lobe of the cam to have the necessary power, while pulling a load up hill in second..... perhaps that is my problem.........
as timgr says; Unlike an even-fire engine, there are only half of the distributor positions that will be in phase with the crank; the other half will be out of phase (ie 45-75-45-75-45-75 versus 75-45-75-45-75-45).

 

bigger picture . been this way since I've owned it

jeep is a driver . so a pretty engine isn't necessary

 

TECH HELP NEEDED Could someone knowledgeable..... please answer my questions........ If my #1 wire is one tower off on the distributor.... would it still start and run..... ?? and be firing a little off because of the odd length lobes on the distributor center shaft...??? and to correct it , would I simply move the wires around one tower with the rotation of the rotor...? or would I need to lift and move the distributor body around one notch with the rotation..??

 

I'll try again
points will be riding on the rounded lobe . on #1 at TDC


old distributor cap is marked for #1 plug wire . the blue dot

 

OK........ I guess I am NOT being clear or fully understood........ If you read timgr's #5 reply ..... He brought up the fact that the odd fired Dauntless Distributor has unusual spacing between the 6 lobes on the center rotating shaft in the distributor............. "This is an odd-fire engine? If so, recall that the distributor rotation in degrees is 45-75-45-75-45-75 so that it has a phase that must be aligned with the firing order. If you have it set up so that the crank rotation is out of phase with the distributor rotation, it won't run well. Unlike an even-fire engine, there are only half of the distributor positions that will be in phase with the crank; the other half will be out of phase (ie 45-75-45-75-45-75 versus 75-45-75-45-75-45)." ................. So I might have #1 plug wire plugged into #1 cap terminal.... and the engine might start up and sound decent while running...... BUT the points may be riding on the WRONG center cam lobe and be opening during the WRONG phase or rotation...... (the other half will be out of phase (ie 45-75-45-75-45-75 versus 75-45-75-45-75-45")....... thus NO Power going up small hills in second gear..... Does this require me to pull out and rotate the distributor, to get it on the correct lobe, putting it in the correct phase of the odd firing order....????? or will moving the #1 wire over one terminal on the cap change it to the correct phase .....?

 

I know little about what I have cut & pasted below. It is just what you asked to avoid--but I believe there's information within the "cut & paste" that is food for thought to your situation. Maybe it can be a place for someone in the know to agree or disagree with.

Setting the Timing
In order to set the timing on an odd-fire or semi-even fire V-6, one must be very careful to align all of the components of the ignition system so that the motor runs properly. The frustration with these engines stems from the fact that a mistake results in a poorly running engine, but a running engine nonetheless. To set the engine up, first set the #1 cylinder to your timing point (~10 deg before TDC). Remove the cap and rotor and all plug wires. Observe the relationship between the points on the pole piece and the points on the reluctor. When the #1 cylinder fires, you want the points to line up on an "odd" cylinder. This means that after the cylinder fires, the rotor must turn 75 (or 66) degrees to fire the #6 cylinder, which corresponds to the wider gap between points on the reluctor. So, when you observe the points on the pole piece and reluctor, you must rotate the distributor housing to align on an "odd" cylinder. Measure the distance between the reluctor points with a caliper if necessary to verify that the next alignment of the points will occur after the "pause," or longer gap. Tighten the housing and replace the cap and rotor, noting which terminal the rotor is pointing toward - it should be an "odd" terminal under the cap for odd fire engines. This terminal must be your #1 cylinder now. You can connect the rest of the plug wires in the firing order after #1 is established (6-5-4-3-2). There is only one way to do this properly.

 

The OP sent me a PM asking for help. He claims no one else on this forum understands the phasing of the distributor. I'm not a Dauntless expert, though I understand the odd-fire design a bit.

To the OP - you understand that the lobes on the distributor cam are rigidly connected to the crankshaft? This is via the timing chain and the cam gear meshing with the distributor gear. You CAN NOT change that by turning the distributor body or moving the wires. The rotor is rigidly connected to the distributor shaft and the distributor cam. The distributor has to be synchronized ("in phase") with the crank, so that the 45 degree lobe on the distributor cam matches the 90 degree rotation of the crankshaft, 75 matches 150, etc.

The distributor turns 360 degrees (one complete rotation) to fire all the cylinders. 45+75+45+75+45+75 = 360. The crank turns two complete rotations to fire all the cylinders. 2 * 360 = 720 degrees. 90+150+90+150+90+150 = 720. This is odd-fire. Even-fire would be 60-60-60-60-60-60 and 120-120-120-120-120-120.

If you are out of phase, you cannot fix it by moving the wires around or turning the distributor body. You must remove the distributor from the block, turn the rotor backwards or forwards to the next or previous wire, and reinsert in the block.

This is what all this discussion of putting the #1 spark tower in the correct position on the engine. No personal experience with this, byt if you follow the procedure described above, I expect the distributor will be synchronized with the crank shaft.

I can't give you a better procedure than that. I don't have one of these engines in front of me. All I can do is tell you how it works, in hopes that will help you figure it out.

 

I expect this will not be helpful. There is no reluctor in a points distributor.

 

I understand it, and obviously others who have responded do as well, but your explanation is well written and should clarify the quandary for the OP.

The M38 I had years ago had the "odd fire", and my first car was a 63 Buick Special with one, and as a teenager I went through some of the same confusion getting that Buick to run right. It is an unusual engine, and requires some study. Of course the Internet didn't exist 50 years ago, so I spent a lot of time reading through the Glens and Motors shop manuals I found at the public library.

I like their rumble, and would be glad to have one again, but both of the V6 engines I have now are even fire.

 

I would suggest that you look at a Factory Service Manual (often refered to as FSM). I am at work and can't reffer to the manual I have but i am sure the procedure to insatll the distributor correctly is in it. You can purchase a reproduction of this manual on-line.
https://www.faxonautoliterature.com...riginal-Universal-CJ-3B-5-5A-6-6A-P16504.aspx