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Howell Odd Fire V6 Fuel Injection Kit Install

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Norcal69, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. May 7, 2021
    45es

    45es Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    As you know, your idle is rich. I also don't know what your BLM is at higher rpms. If both are indicating a rich condition, backing off on the fuel pressure slightly will affect fueling throughout. If you see a rich condition only one of the areas, talk to Howell about addressing fueling in that area. Track your BLM's in the variuos conditions to help them decide what adjustments to make.

    At idle, is the idle rpm fluctuating or reasonably stead? What is the IAC doing?
     
  2. May 7, 2021
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
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    Kyle what’s the RPM signal look like on your data logger.
    If the RPM signal is erratic it will cause the surging and fuel trim fluctuations.
    If the RPM signal is erratic it may be as simple as adj. the air gap on your crank sensor
     
  3. May 7, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    The rpm signal now matches the fluctuation if the idle. On occasion I can get it to idle between 725 and 800. It kinda works up and down.
    Are you thinking slightly closer on the sensor to smooth that out?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
    Jw60 likes this.
  4. May 8, 2021
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
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    What’s the air gap between the sensor and the triggers and are all the gaps the same.
    Are the triggers evenly spaced on the balancer.
     
  5. May 8, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    The triggers are all spaced evenly through the balancer holes.
    I will check the exact gap with a feeler gauge.
    There is likely a small variation in gap due to the nature of the bolts. I could pull them, put in my mill and make a pass over to get all exact.
     
  6. May 8, 2021
    45es

    45es Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    I have reread several comments in your posts both here and at gearhead-efi.com . Here's a few things noted.

    At gearhead if you recall, Rbob said to ground B3 to ecm sensor ground. I believe Howell's instructions were either incomplete or unclear when they implied to connect your crank sensor ground to B3. I believe it should be as Rob noted, both B3 and your sensor to ecm sensor ground pin. When B3 sees 0 volts (ie ground) it is being told to let the ignition control module control ignition timing.


    To Mjragan's questions, I believe in an earlier comment, you said your sensor clearance to the three node was 0.110". I commented it should be half that distance but hopefully it would not be a problem. For comparison, I looked up the requirements for my crank sensor clearance to tone ring and it is 0.050".
     
  7. May 8, 2021
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
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    It couldn't hurt, I think that would be a good idea. Before you take it apart It might be a good idea to check your crankshaft end play, if it is excessive it could affect the signal. Also make sure all the flats on bolts (triggers) are facing the same direction
    The cam sensor your using is basically a magnetic switch when activated, by a flat metal trigger sends a digital signal to the Ecm. If you turn the engine over by hand with the key on and the engine off the injectors should fire as each of the triggers pass the sensor. The injectors should also fire if you pass a flat piece of steal past the sensor. As for the air gap you might have to play with it to find what works best for your set up? Just keep in mind the crankshaft end play.
     
  8. May 8, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    I spent about 2 hours on the phone this afternoon talking with Randy Prevatt, the guy who tried to tell Howell that their system will not work properly how they attempt to do it. He has fixed quite a few systems. His words are “The Howell setup might run better than a poorly tuned gummed up carb, but without the crank sensor setup their junk will never preform to its potential.”
    Randy is emailing me a tune he wrote with an oddfire in a Jeep running on his chassis dyno. I will forward that file to Howell on Monday.
    I have to go irrigate now, I’ll post all the info I got from Randy when I get to my computer.
     
  9. May 9, 2021
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
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    When I decided to do a TBI I called Howell and they told me the GM TBI system will not work on an odd fire? This was before they offered an odd fire system.
    After a trip to the local pick your part and 400$ I was good to go, I had some growing pains triggering the system(none related to the odd fire configuration) I have two different ways to trigger my TBI right now both work fine and are very basic and simple one is a tach filter/signal converter wired into the tach terminal of the HEI and the other is off the tach terminal on a MSD box. The prom/calibrations in the Ecm are factory GM for the 4.3L, the system works great and I haven't experienced the problems the Howell system is having.
    I am sure that a hall effect crank sensor will work, I have a fresh odd fire on the engine stand that will be running a hall effect sensor. My hats off to you for sticking with it and being so transparent with the problems you facing, your going to get it figured out and end up being the TBI go to guy.
     
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  10. May 9, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Here is the full report I got from Randy Prevatt. Randy came up with the idea of using the corvette cam sensor as a crank sensor.
    A customer came to him in 2018 pleading for help with his Howell TBI setup. They put the dauntless powered jeep on his chassis dyno and went to work. The Jeep ran terrible and did not respond well to adjustments so right off the bat he hooked up an oscilloscope and it was obvious that even with Howell's special tach filter the signal was still too distorted for the ecm to get a good input reading.
    Randy works with allot of LS engines and was familiar with the cam sensor setup used by them. They whipped up a sensor bracket and used plain old bolts in the balancer.

    The sensor wires up as follows:
    Terminal A is the 5v power input into the sensor. This power comes out of terminal C14 on the ECM.
    Terminal B is the ground input for the sensor. This can be connected to one of the system grounds on either terminals A12 or D1 on the ECM.
    Terminal C is the RPM signal coming out of the sensor. This sends the signal into terminal B5 on the ECM.

    Randy specifically said he would not connect the ground to either of the TPS/MAP sensor grounds as he did not want to risk interference with those sensors.
    The sensor should have a .050 air gap.
    After Calibrating the IAC, open the butterflies just a tad to trick the stepper motor down to 25-30.
    Slot the holes on the TPS and adjust to .58 volts after idle is set. This makes the throttle response very crisp.
    He commented that he started with a 4.3 tune and adjusted from there to perfectly match the dauntless, but a 4.3 tune worked pretty well.
    The customer left with a jeep that ran down the road like a "scalded dog" according to him and he was impressed with how the little engine ran. (This guy tunes 1000 HP monsters for breakfast...)
    When he reported to Howell what he had done.... he said they were blown away that it could be done. In a round about way he said the Howell was screwing people over by not being forthcoming about their inability to get a decent signal with their filter. I also got to hear about a bunch of other Howell nightmares that he was able to fix/tune.......
    Randy has emailed me the tunes that he burned while testing the jeep on his dyno. I will be forwarding that tune to Howell in the morning along with a request of a 600 rpm idle speed.

    I asked him what aftermarket fuel injection kit he would recommend. He said he has worked will every system on the market and the Holley sniper was by far the most user friendly, best tech support, best software, ect..... Randy highly recommended the Holley 2300 kit with the addition of a crank sensor for an odd fire engine. He said yes, some filters work, but they are never as rock solid as a crank fire setup.

    I know that some of this information above is a repost. I am putting it all down in one place for future use.
    Once I can verify that the tune works well in my jeep, Randy has given me permission to share that tune with the world. His one request was that nobody else call him..... :rofl: He’s kind of a grumpy old fart.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  11. May 9, 2021
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman

    Maryland
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    I really appreciate your hard work, tenacity and willingness to share freely. If it was me I'd of thrown all that crap through Howell's front window long ago...
     
  12. May 9, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    I checked with UPS and Fed Ex, neither company offers shipping with thrown through front window delivery options...... otherwise I would have opted for that along time ago. :sneak:
     
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  13. May 9, 2021
    jbjeeps

    jbjeeps Member

    The Idaho side...
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    Agreed, either that or put you on the payroll! I really admire your persistence in working through this issue. I've been following your thread with some concern. I have a Howell stand alone wiring harness and computer that we're getting ready to install on a 2016 Chevy V-6 4.3 Ecotec Direct Injection engine we've put in a '48 2A. Hoping my experience is better.
     
  14. May 9, 2021
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
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    How is it running now?

    How was it running before you changed to the crank sensor, if it is not running as well or better there is a problem with the Rpm signal going into the Ecm. The first thing your going to have to do is get a stable, good Rpm signal into the Ecm, then dial it in from there.

    I like the idea of triggering your rpm signal off the crank sensor as long as the tabs/triggers are evenly spaced the signal going into the Ecm is also going to be evenly spaced. With the Ecm reading evenly spaced rpm pulses vs the unevenly spaced pulses the tach signal is providing the Ecm has no idea the engine is an oddfire, and if your not using the Ecm to fire the ignition that's a good thing.

    In a case like this a scope would really be nice, we would be able to look at the signal going into the Ecm. The snap on brick has a slow refresh rate so when it is displaying data like the Rpm it may not be showing the true fluctuations or dropouts of the Rpm, You have a PC based data logger that will display data?? The data logger should give us a better idea of the Rpm signal.

    Ecm pins A12 and D1 are the low ref/grounds for the 5v ref circuit by wiring the Low ref of your crank sensor to any other ground will more than likely cause unwanted noise/interference on that sensor or all the sensors on that 5v ref circuit, the sensor your using should not interfere with the other sensors
     
  15. May 9, 2021
    supertrooper

    supertrooper Member

    moreno valley, ca
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    Just curious, why would he recommend the 2300 model over the 2gc model? Is it just to fit your intake manifold or is there a difference in function or performance?
     
  16. May 9, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    The 2300 is better suited for an Offy intake, headers, basic step up cam..... The 2GC would be more suited for a stock engine and has a pretty low CFM rating.
     
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  17. May 9, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Once I get to that point I’ll be putting the 2GC Sniper on my Dauntless.

    BTW I also admire your perseverance with the Howell system and I hope you’re nearing the finish line!
     
  18. May 9, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    The engine on the road runs way better than now than it did with the tach filter. The biggest current problem is the idle and a slight rich condition. When I got it running on the crank sensor the engine suddenly was way lean. I had to turn the fuel pressure up to 15psi to keep it from throwing lean codes. I remembered that I had a chip from Howell that was labeled 225-4.3..... This chip was burned for me at the beginning before I played with the fuel pressure. The tune in the chip was too rich so I put the original one back in and ran it at about 13 psi of fuel pressure. With the crank sensor I was able to put the "richer" chip back in and dial the fuel pressure down to 12. It's a tad rich currently, my numbers are in the low 120's, but overall drive ability is pretty peppy!

    My crank nodes are all evenly spaced. I still need to tighten up the gap a bit between the nodes and the sensor. I am going to take a pass at the three of them on my mill to get them perfect. This will leave only balancer runout and thrust to cause any distance issues. After facing each node, I will check clearance with a feeler gauge and document each one.

    The ECM is now definitely receiving a steady idle signal. If I unplug the IAC motor the engine will idle at 750 rpm darn near perfect. Maybe a small 25rpm bounce but that's pretty standard. With the IAC hooked up the RPM will hunt up and down from 675-900, the snap on scanner pretty much matches that on the display. I'll try to get a video of it, it is way better than before.
     
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  19. May 10, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    The new chip is in the mail today!
     
  20. May 12, 2021
    Willys43

    Willys43 Member

    Kansa City
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    When I put the Gm efi on my 198, I used an HEI oddfire distributor modified with a 7 pin ignition module,(85 corvette), never had an signal issues at all, that module has a separate terminal for B5. I think I said that right!
    Craig
     
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