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Rotating sector shaft pins

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Stu, Dec 2, 2015.

  1. Dec 2, 2015
    Stu

    Stu New Member

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    The steering on my CJ was very tight and felt like it was binding in certain areas, I ordered the parts to rebuild it and everything came in so I pulled my steering box yesterday to rebuild it, not too much of a problem to get it out. When I pulled it out I removed the pitman arm, then took the cover off, I tried turning the shaft with the cover off and it turned very easy, put the cover back on and it was tight again, the adjusting nut for the sector shaft was overtightened and making it bind against the worm gear.

    Anyway I pulled everything out of the box and noticed there was a lot of wear on the sector shaft pins and figured I was going to have to buy a new one, of course mine is the 15/16" one, called Kaiser, Walcks and checked online and of course there were none available anywhere.

    Found an article online from Four Wheeler magazine that said they ran into the same problem and they had a machine shop push the pins out and rotated, so I figured it was worth a shot, ground off the back of the pins put them in a vise and pushed them out, they came out quite easily, I had marked them with a center punch, rotated them 90 degrees to an unworn area and pressed them back in, welded them on the back and will reinstall today.

    I used a couple of sockets to start them off but ended up having to put a small bolt in place to push it all the way out, when you grind off the end it's quite difficult to see where the edge of the pin is you have to rotate it a few ways and you can just see the edge and mark it, they didn't take too much pressure to push out, so if you have to use a lot of force take a second look and make sure your on the pin and not partially on the sector shaft.

    Took a few pics along the way but it's a fairly simple operation.

    Hopefully this helps someone out that has run into the same problem.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Dec 2, 2015
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Arguably a better idea than buying a replacement shaft as the factory stock pins probably don't wear as badly as the aftermarket stuff.

    The heavier duty Ross boxes actually have pins that rotate, wish Willys had of sprung for those ones :(

    H.
     
  3. Dec 2, 2015
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    This is a topic that I detailed several years back.
    Search "tapered sector rotation" on here and the 3B BB.
    In truth the tapered sector pins need not and probably should not be removed.
    They merely need to be rotated 90*
    There is enough pin head available to grasp onto via using vise grips..
    In short you deswage / rotate 90* / then re-swage the pins.
     
  4. Dec 2, 2015
    Uncle Vin

    Uncle Vin Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    How do you "deswage" the pin?
     
  5. Dec 2, 2015
    Uncle Vin

    Uncle Vin Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Forget it. I just read your 3B post: "NORMALLY....
    When the tapered sector pins get notable flat spots I usually recommend a procedure called the "sector taper pin rotation".
    To perform a sector taper pin rotation the taper pins are de-swaged via oxyacetylene heat focussed onto the rear pin swage.
    When the pin swage reaches a very dull red; the pin is rotated 90* to a new position.
    The pin is grasp very firmly with vise grips around the collar thats just under the tapered section.
    Small gouges in the collar may occur but will have no effect on the tapered portion of the pin.
    Sometimes the pins must be swaged back tight (hammered) after the desired rotation to prevent any further rotation.
    Do not heat the pin swage more than needed to rotate them 90* .
    And do not quench !"
     
  6. Dec 2, 2015
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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  7. Dec 3, 2015
    Stu

    Stu New Member

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    Thanks, I'll take some measurements and look at those pins.

    Any particular reason not to remove them ? I can't see any problems, they are still a very tight fit and with welding the backside they aren't going to move, I think that removing them and turning rather than heating is a better idea than heating and altering the hardness of the steel.
     
  8. Dec 3, 2015
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    Simply no need to remove them.
    In order to remove one must grind the head off.
    The head swage is a safety measure.
    Welds between the pin head and the shaft forging can potentially break away.
    This obviously depends on the welders knowledge and ability.
    That's why the pins were not welded into position from the factory.
    No need for a certified welder.

    During the de-swage we are heating only the taper pin head and are heating it only to a very dull red stage.
    Dull red is around 1200* F. maybe up to 1400* F.
    That temperature has no effect upon the case hardening of the pin.
    The case hardening remains because the extra carbon was absorbed through time and temperature exposure during the hardening process and the extra carbon does not leave the pin via relatively low re-heat.

    Welds on the pin head actually heat the pin much more than the heat required to de-swage.
    You are heating both the taper pin and the forging to a molten state.
    That's nearer to 2700 or 2800* F.
     
  9. Dec 3, 2015
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    My understanding is a little different. Hardened carbon steel has it's brittle hardness reduced after quenching by "tempering" as necessary. The temperatures to begin reducing the hardness are as low as 400ºF, and by about 700-800ºF the steel is nearly as soft as "mild steel" again. I didn't think it had much to do with "removing carbon."

    I'm no metallurgist but have played around making tools etc. Case hardening as I know it would be at the high end of the tempering hardness scale, and thus quickly reduced (tempered) even at the lower end of temperature range.

    I share Stu's feeling it may be better not to apply high heat (assuming the pins are indeed hardened for wear resistance).

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/tempering-colors-steel-d_1530.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  10. Dec 3, 2015
    Uncle Vin

    Uncle Vin Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Okay, so now what? What's the best way to do this?
     
  11. Dec 3, 2015
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    Deswage/Reswage mechanically? (Grind it out, rotate, hit it with pointed punch a few times?)o_O
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  12. Dec 3, 2015
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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    Technically speaking all of you are right and wrong at the same time on heat treatment.
    Generally speaking carbon steel and high speed steel (HSS) harden in 2 different ways, and mild steel can only be hardened by case hardening in some way by introducing carbon into the steel.
    Annealing or drawing back in carbon steel, high speed steel or tool steel starts at 400F and continue to around 900F but to do this the soak time of that temp needs to be around 1 hour.
    Now making parts and heat treating them for around the last 20 years my experience would be mainly HSS and tool steel. But if I were making these in production I would make them out of 4140 or 4340 chromemoly and induction heat treat the crown portion only, leaving the shank at the base hardness around 25 rc, the head where it was induction hardened would be around 60-62 rc. I doubt very seriously that these buttons are made from carbon steel and for sure are not made from HSS.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  13. Dec 3, 2015
    Uncle Vin

    Uncle Vin Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    So, the heat and twist method is fine, or the push-and-weld method is fine, or both methods are fine?
     
  14. Dec 3, 2015
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    "Annealing or drawing back in carbon steel, high speed steel or tool steel starts at 400F and continue to around 900F but to do this the soak time of that temp needs to be around 1 hour."



    I am aware that long heat soaks are used in industrial tempering, and have sucessfully used my kitchen oven in that way, making the chisels I work with. But I don't think it takes an hour to ruin the temper of hardened carbon steel.

    That statement above doesn't explain to me how the temper of a chisel or drill bit can be ruined (in my experience) by about two seconds of overheating.
    And I'm sure blacksmiths temper tools in minutes, not hours.

    I certainly bow to your expertise and experience, but still I think folks should be cautious in heating hardened parts - especially where safety is an issue.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  15. Dec 3, 2015
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    I was a welder by trade and I still work with metals in my brothers a blacksmith shop.
    I have used the repair method as I previously described.
    I've done it several different times, always with excellent results.

    Hardening technique depends upon the composition of the steel and the component requirements.
    Annealing of various steels depends upon the hardening method if any that was used.
    Tool steel, spring steel, case hardened steel, high carbon steel, low carbon steel, mangalloy etc. are all different to some degree.
    Take a close look at the wear pattern on the taper pin and that will tell you much about the metals grain structure.
    The only reliable method for determining type of steel and treatments is a destuctive test method known as spark testing.
    To perform a spark test without damage the taper pin can be briefly spark tested at the tip.
    The spark color, the spark brilliance, the spark quantity, the particle size and the overall spark patterns (width x length) provide distinguishable characteristics for various types of steel.
     
  16. Dec 3, 2015
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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    Blacksmith's don't use tool steel or HSS steel ever. They generally use low carbon steel, or mild steel and by forging it in coal fires are adding carbon so when they quench it in water or oil they are crystalizing the outer surface that was penetrated by the carbon from the coal or whatever they used to introduce the carbon into the steel.

    There are also steels that will take a lot of abuse at high working temperatures, these are known as hot working steels for use in forging dies and such, they are also used in punches and other striking tools that would generate heat from use. When we built die casting molds for aluminum and zinc the metal that was poured into them were at 1200F and these materials thrived on this type of heat and held there hardness and strength well.
     
  17. Dec 4, 2015
    army grunt

    army grunt Member

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    I bought the last one (in-da-country):), but paid lots for it $250.It ts 15/16", Worked great cj steers great now. I had heard there was a place someplace that was selling some that were just made in a shop someplace.The pins on my old one were the size of a 8 penny nail.
     
  18. Dec 4, 2015
    Stu

    Stu New Member

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    Overlooking the best way to do it arguments. I got the steering box back together and in today, works great, virtually zero play in the steering, I can easily steer with 1 finger when moving, obviously when stopped it's harder, there are 10.5" wide BFG MT's on it right now and once I get the new tires which will be a 215 or 225 (haven't made up my mind yet) it should be easier still, I'm really not sure why everyone is jumping on the saginaw or other PS swaps.
     
  19. Dec 4, 2015
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The reason for Saggy swaps is less maintenance & chance of developing play overall- your box may be tight but the draglink & bellcrank are also problematic and replacement parts tend to be iffy. The saggy also offers some mechanical advantage for really meaty tires.

    That being said the factory Ross system properly set up with fresh quality parts steers as well as anything with stockish sized tires.

    H.
     
  20. Dec 4, 2015
    Stu

    Stu New Member

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    Makes sense.
     
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