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Camber problem front axle

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Rootpass, Apr 10, 2015.

  1. Apr 10, 2015
    Rootpass

    Rootpass USMC Parachute Riggers "The last to let you down"

    McDonough, GA
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    I bought this 1970 CJ 5 a couple of weeks ago and I am slowly making my way through some repairs. The FSM says camber is most likely due to axle damage. I do not see anything obvious with the axle but the front spring hanger is bent.
    How can I check the front end to determine if I have a bent front axle or if it a combination of worn out parts? The passenger side is fine.
    Thank you.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Apr 10, 2015
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Have you been through the knuckles yet? Nearly every closed-knuckle Jeep that has not been owned by an enthusiast needs the knuckles rebuilt. I'd suspect the kingpin bearings, or the spindle attachment, if the axle isn't broken. Typically front axles break where the long tube goes in to the housing, if the housing is going to break.

    Re the front spring hanger, I'd probably attribute that to collision damage. Your bumper is bent, and it serves as the cross-member to keep the frame horns in alignment. The hanger will take on any bend in the frame horn.
     
  3. Apr 10, 2015
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    For a quick check, jack that corner up and see if it has any slack in the vertical plane. If it does, the king pin bearing would top the suspect list but if not, something is likely bent. That is a lot more off camber than anything I've seen to date with just bad king pin bearings. You can buy caster shims that fit between the knuckle and spindle but those are sort of a band aid fix.

    If you have access to a portapower spreader unit, you can easily bend the shackle hanger back down. Put a heavy plate on the bottom of the upper rail when doing so or you may also bend that. With the bent bumper, make sure the frame horns are still parallel. Like Tim said, the bumper is structural and very necessary.
     
  4. Apr 10, 2015
    Rootpass

    Rootpass USMC Parachute Riggers "The last to let you down"

    McDonough, GA
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    Thank you very much. Re. the king pins. I don't want to spend the money to rebuild the front axle if the problem is structural. Thanks guys.
     
  5. Apr 10, 2015
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    My thoughts also. Unless the Jeep is a complete restoration project, I don't see any utility in rebuilding either a D25 or D27. The D30 is just better in so many ways.
     
  6. Apr 10, 2015
    47v6

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    Plus they can come with factory disk brakes.
     
  7. Apr 10, 2015
    Rootpass

    Rootpass USMC Parachute Riggers "The last to let you down"

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    I guess a D30 replacement is limited to a Scout front axle due to the width?
     
  8. Apr 10, 2015
    47v6

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    Think the years for narrow track D30 JEEP axles is 1972 to 1981.
     
  9. Apr 10, 2015
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Here is some info on the D30 Axle. Good swap when you can find them.

    This Dana 30 features an open knuckle design with 7 1/5" ring gear. Although the same model axle has been used for almost 25 years, they are not compatible. There are numerous various in brakes, hubs, differential orientation, wheel bolt pattern, and width.

    The R&P ratio ranges supported by the carriers are 2.72-3.54 and 3.73-5.38 for the standard rotation and 2.73-3.54 and 3.73-4.56 for reverse rotation.

    CJ Dana 30s
    Early Dana 30s used a 11"x2" drum brake. Disk brakes were optional in 1976 and standard starting in 1977. Between '76-'78 the disk brakes used a large 10-1/2"x1-1/8" rotor. The "big brake" setup uses a 6 bolt caliper mounting bracket that goes between the knuckle and the spindle. The caliper is keyed to the mouting bracket and the rotor should apear wide when looking on edge. Rubber brake hoses with brass banjo fitting end. These rotors, calipers, and pads are compatible with the Scout II.

    From 1979-1986 they used a 10-1/2"x7/8" rotor with a 2 bolt to knuckle caliper mounting bracket. From '79-'81 the caliper is keyed to the mounting bracket and uses rubber brake hoses with brass banjo fitting end. From '82-'86 the caliper is pin-bolted to the caliper bracket and the hoses are rubber crimped to steel line.

    All Dana 30s from 1972-1980 use a six bolt locking hub. From '72-'78 the factory had Warn Premium hubs as an option. From '79-'80 the factory used Warn non-premium hubs stock. From 1981-1986 they use a weak Warn five bolt locking hub stock. Jeeps built in the 70s with the Quadratrac transfer case will not have hubs at all unless they have been converted to part-time operation. They have driven plates instead. Hubs should not be used with this transfer case unless it has been converted to part-time operation.

    Another big difference between the CJ and Dana 30s used in later models is the CJ has the diff case offset on the passenger side and the later models have the diff case offset on the drivers side.

    Most CJ Dana 30s will have lock-outs on the hubs to engage or disengage the wheel from the axle. With both hubs unlocked, the axles, u-joints, differential, and front drive shaft do not spin. This is done to increase gas milage, and if a locker is installed in the front diff, it will impove handling on the pavement. Later model Dana 30s either an axle disconnect system or no disconnect system.

    The CJ Dana 30 uses the 5 on 5.5" wheel bolt pattern other models use the 5 on 4.5" wheel bolt pattern.

    Outer parts (knuckles out) can be switched amoung to different versions of the CJ Dana 30. This means CJs with drum brakes can upgrade to disk and CJs with cheesy 5 bolt locking hubs can upgrade to 6 bolt locking hubs. Later models use different knuckles and ball joints that are not compatible to the CJ Dana 30.

    Common gear ratios from '72-'75 were 3.73, from '76-'79 were 3.54, and from '80-'86 were 2.73

    Wrangler Dana 30
    Dana 30 YJ The YJ and the TJ don't use locking hubs. The YJ uses a troublesome vacuum actuated axle disconnect system. The TJ uses high quality bearings that have very low resistence so it doesn't use hubs or an axle disconnect system. Wranglers use and smaller rotor than the CJ. The TJ also uses a different pinion from the YJ. The TJ pinion uses a crush sleeve instead of shims. This difference made gear R&P selection for the TJ a bit limited at first.

    Dana 30 CJ CJ Normal cut Dana 30
    Dana 30 YJ YJ Reverse cut Dana 30


    A strength of the YJ Dana 30 is its use of reverse cut ring and pinion. The ring and pinion are stronger when they are reverse cut in front axles. The reverse cut axle also provides better ground clearance and driveline angles.

    Unfortunately, the TJ does not use the reverse cut Dana 30. It uses a normal cut Dana 30 similar, but not compatible to, the CJ Dana 30.

    Dana 30 Axle Disconnect The YJ Dana 30 uses an axle disconnect system that is prone to failure. Often the vacuum hoses the activate the disconnect system will fall off or tear. Sometimes the vacuum motor won't have enough power to engage the sleeve when the gear lube in the disconnect housing gets gummed up. Another problem is that since only one axle is ever disconnected, an automatic locker or limited slip differential can cause problems with the axle and with handling. The drivers side axle is always spinning the differential.

    . The TJ has done away with with the system completely which is good in that it is not likely to fail, but since there is no way to stop the differential from spinning, an automatic locker or limited slimp can degrade handling on the road.

    The YJ and the TJ Dana 30 uses the 5 on 4.5" wheel bolt pattern. The YJ Dana 30 is of course set up for leaf springs and the TJ Dana 30 is set up for coil springs.

    Comanche, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee Dana 30
    The Comanche (MJ) and Cherokee (XJ) use a reverse cut Dana 30 and the Grand Cherokee (ZJ) uses a normal cut Dana 30. Like the YJ and the TJ, these axles use a 5 on 4.5" wheel bolt pattern. All of these trucks use coil springs up front.

    FSJ
    The Dana 30 front axle was used for a short time from 1971-1973 in Cherokees (SJ), Wagoneers (SJ), and J-Series pickups.

    Other Dana 30 Information
    Here are some other articles related to the Dana 30. Dana 30 Disk Brake Conversion: How to convert a drum brake Dana 30 to disk brakes. Some minor Dana 30 differences are documented in this article including differences in spindles, bearings, and brake hubs. This article also explains why the Dana 30 is a good low buck axle upgrade for '45-'71 CJs.


    Specifications
    Model/Version Spring Pads Wheel to Wheel Years
    Dana 30/CJ Narrow Track 28" 53" '72-'81
    Dana 30/CJ Wide Track 28" 56" '82-'86
    Dana 30/XJ NA 60 3/4" '84-
    Dana 30/MJ NA NA '86-'92
    Dana 30/YJ 31" 60" '87-'95
    Dana 30/ZJ NA NA '93-
    Dana 30/TJ NA NA '97-
     
  10. Apr 10, 2015
    Rootpass

    Rootpass USMC Parachute Riggers "The last to let you down"

    McDonough, GA
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    That's just what I needed. Let the search begin. Thanks guys
     
  11. Apr 10, 2015
    alpina72

    alpina72 Member

    Georgia
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    Mine sits the same way.
    Jacking it up and shaking the wheel it seems like the bottom kingpin isn't even there.
    Have been afraid to investigate any further. My years of experience with Murphy's Law tells me the axle housing is likely damaged beyond repair
     
  12. Apr 10, 2015
    47v6

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    Maybe your bottom bearing has disintegrated? They aren't hard or expensive to replace.
     
  13. Apr 10, 2015
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Take a look before you cause real damage.
     
  14. Apr 10, 2015
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    My $.02- check the knuckle bearings & check the axle/bell for bending- if it is the bearings & the axle isn't bent then you'll be ahead time & money wise by rebuilding rather than replacing the whole axle, possibly entailing gear change & what-not.

    We went through this -

    [​IMG]


    And the axle/bell didn't bend-

    [​IMG]


    More pics on how I checked it here-

    http://tantel.ca/Images/The Sludge Pile/Section_M_Front Axle/

    H.
     
  15. Apr 10, 2015
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    The way to break a front axle is to get a lot of air, repeatedly. I think Howard's experience is typical - seems it takes a heck of a collision to break an axle.
     
  16. Apr 10, 2015
    alpina72

    alpina72 Member

    Georgia
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    I'm going on the assumption that it had been run that way for a long time...right up until the transmission exploded.
    I would guess that the bores for the king pins are egged out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  17. Apr 10, 2015
    47v6

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    The king pin caps ride in a tapered roller bearing that then rides in a race. The race gets tapped into the bell on the bottom and top. Its really something you want replaced and new if you think they are worn. I have done them where the the bearings wore flats into the race/cup. Machined them right in there. The king pins and the bells were fine. its no fun, nor safe, to drive it that way.
     
  18. Apr 10, 2015
    alpina72

    alpina72 Member

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    I'm going have to take a closer look, would much rather do a rebuild than a replacement
    I sure as hell wouldn't run it like that. Mine came off a plantation and I think they just ran it until it didn't move anymore sometime back in 88

    Sorry to hijack your thread Rootpass, There's a 73 CJ5 over at LKQ in Fayetteville I yanked the transmission from it but nobody else has touched it yet
     
  19. Apr 12, 2015
    Rootpass

    Rootpass USMC Parachute Riggers "The last to let you down"

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    It is the bearings. There is a ton of movement while on a jack stand. The bearing set is around $200 if I remember. If the race is egg shaped that's it for the axle housing right?
     
  20. Apr 12, 2015
    47v6

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    The race comes out and is not an integral part of the bell, just has a machined recess for that race.

    Look at the exploded view or better yet find a copy of the service manual that this is probably from anyway

    http://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/dana-25-27-front-axle-diagram
     
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