1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

The Square Deal

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by duffer, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Jan 14, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    The only way that spline will pull out is if the rear axle is no longer attached to the Willys-at which point I doubt that will be too big of a concern. I just touched up the pinion yoke and everything now clears. I'm still going to have to pull the yoke on the D18 out about an 1/8" to get the bolts into the double cardan yoke as I still have the ebrake rear bearing retainer on this. That will no doubt break the seal on the thin coating of RTV on the output shaft splines but worth a try before I dump the still new Stalube GL4.[/QUOTE]

    What yoke did you use for the transfer case? If you have to drain it you could cut down the retainer. Run the gear oil through a cheese cloth filter and pump it back in.
    How do you tighten the yoke nut with the joint in place?
     
    Ol Fogie likes this.
  2. Jan 14, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    The rear output yoke is Dana Spicer 2-4-4061X, the 10 spline yoke for the 1310 double cardan joint. The bolt holes in the yoke are not threaded. So if I slip the yoke rearward someplace between an 1/8 and a 1/4", I can slip those bolts into the bores "loose" and then retorque the yoke nut. I still have ample room to get a wrench on the bolt heads to then attach the driveshaft. Better than screwing up the bearing retainer whittling on it. You can sort of see the arrangement in the initial mock up photo. I just used regular bolts for that but those only engage about 1/4" of the threads in the double cardan.
     
  3. Jan 14, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    Thanks...I get it now. Good information to me cause I will be doing this in the future. Bolts in, then tighten yoke. I blew up the picture and lost the detail. :banghead:
     
  4. Feb 5, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    Finished up the rear pumpkin skid plate yesterday. It cost me about 1/8" clearance but think I can live with that.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Twin2, Buildflycrash, SKT and 6 others like this.
  5. Feb 20, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    Finally finished up the rear axle install. I ended up welding an insert for the under-bed cross member to hang the limit strap off of as I didn't think that sheet metal was going to be too happy with it directly attached. ARB and vent lines left, e brake cables middle and brake line right.
    [​IMG]

    Now to deal with the engine antifreeze leaks--------
     
    blalp!, SKT, 47v6 and 5 others like this.
  6. Feb 20, 2023
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,717
    Rubicon 2023?
     
    timsresort likes this.
  7. Feb 25, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    A photo of the cross member insert. The weird right end fits around a piece I welded in there about 1975 to mount an electric fuel pump. The top of it is retained by bolts through the original tub mount holes. Those were moved out over the frame rails a couple decades back. The tabs are for a fuel tank vent line mounting.
    [​IMG]
     
    Fireball likes this.
  8. Mar 4, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    Continuing engine saga: Maybe to back up a bit, this engine was installed over a year back and all appeared well until I filled the cooling system at which point drips began appear on the garage floor from what appeared numerous sources. With the engine skid plate on there it was impossible to pin point most of it down but 2 left side head studs were obvious-flowing out the center of the 12 pt nuts-something I had never before observed. I was so disgusted I drained it and went on with the new rear axle project. Having completed the butt job, Thursday I got the engine skid plate off-not an easy task. Yesterday I spent the morning pulling the right front of the B apart so I could access the right side head bolts. Fender and bunches of other stuff including the York had to be removed. I pulled/resealed/retorqued the two obviously leaking studs. Being more than a bit skeptical about this, this morning I paid a visit to Harbor Junk and purchased their best version of a radiator tester (it actually worked well, at least once). One can suspect where this went. At 16 psi, every external stud along the outside of both heads that I had not previously pulled/sealed began their sad weeping.

    When I dropped off the engine "kit" at the "builder", I had included all the specific instruction sheets for all of the components, including the 4 pages for the not very cheap, not very stock Dart aluminum block. Those Dart instructions were very explicit on the stud sealing procedure which was obviously not followed. Another unknown is whether or not he actually seated the sleeves as per instructions. I had included a sacrificial head gasket for this exercise, again as per instructions. Whether or not the heads will have to be completely removed remains to be determined. I was feeling pretty good about my intake manifold install not leaking with its spacers and double gaskets (raised deck block). Might get to do that over.

    My plan here is to loosen all the head bolts in proper order to about 40 ft/lbs-enough to hopefully keep everything sealed cylinder wise at least, pull and reseal/retorque the bolts to 40 fl-lbs again. Then, when all resealed do the final torque to spec. These are supposed to be set with a torque angle gauge, another thing I'm 100% certain didn't happen.

    Difficult to find good help anymore--------I sent the "builder" an email suggesting he should refund half of the not insignificant bill he charged me. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
     
    dozerjim, Rich M., timsresort and 2 others like this.
  9. Mar 4, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    The story of my life. The one thing you were counting on being right goes to crap. Replacing head gaskets will be like starting over as your engine compartment is tight.:cry:
     
  10. Mar 4, 2023
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Man, that’s gotta be a gut blow. Sorry to hear this.
     
  11. Mar 4, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    5,627
    Hopefully the upper row of head bolts don't also go into the water jacket.

    It really does seem like you'll need to pull the studs and seal the threads to get it right. Hopefully they have an allen or hex head at the top so you can get them out without pulling the head.
     
  12. Mar 4, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    I have to double nut the studs but they are not torqued into the block so so far all have come out easily. The nuts are all 12 point and use a 1/2" socket so easier to access than normal nuts. The upper studs do not appear to be leaking but I only left the 16 psi on the system for about 5 minutes do the the expanding mess on the garage floor. I am going to pull them anyway to be sure and will need to pull all the rocker arms.
     
    dozerjim, vtxtasy and Fireball like this.
  13. Mar 4, 2023
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,137
    It's common to see leaks with studs.
    Now whether or not the guy assembled the engine correctly is another thing.
    Personally, I wouldn't pressurize it without have ran the engine because the gaskets might not have sealed yet. Also water on first start. Easier to clean up than antifreeze.

    One or two of these and a heat cycle of the engine a time or two should cure it.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Mar 5, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    Never heard of that. I would be leery of adding anything. Sawdust in transmissions comes to mind. Do you have any experience with those?
     
  15. Mar 5, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    5,627
    Thank goodness you have enough treads to double nut them without pulling the heads!
     
  16. Mar 5, 2023
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,137
    I do, and they've worked well for me and dozens of others.
     
    vtxtasy likes this.
  17. Mar 5, 2023
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    We were just talking about those tablets at work on Friday. They were a factory recommended fix for leaks in Cadillacs, even added on the assembly line.
     
    vtxtasy, 73 cj5 and Fireball like this.
  18. Mar 5, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    I'm not convinced those would work in this case. The gaskets do not appear to be leaking. I have Fel-Pro's 1143 sandwich gaskets on this, a composite layer on both sides of a central stainless steel layer. None of that is actually bonded together but held in position by brass rivets on tabs extending outside of the head mating surface. The gaskets used in this need to remain something close to 0.040" because the pistons are zero decked and that is the only clearance. I designed that way to keep the quench to the absolute minimum to reduce potential detonation at low rpm. The crank, rods, pistons should have close to zero flex-all very robust components.

    This would have all been perfectly fine if the guy would have followed the stud sealing instructions rather than treat it the same as any other Gen I small block. I think the short block is probably assembled ok because I was present for some of that. Even with the spread pan rails, there was whittling required on the block to clear the rod bolts. The bearing clearance was right on spec. The oil gallery restrictor plugs are likely ok too as everything appeared to be oiling properly when I primed it.
     
    47v6, vtxtasy, 73 cj5 and 3 others like this.
  19. Mar 28, 2023
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,460
    Despite distractions like a fluffy 51" snow dump, I have been making a little progress on this project. Contrary to my initial thoughts, I can get the heads off with the engine still in-place so decided to go down that route. I had to leave one stud in the left side head as there wasn't room for it to clear the brake booster but a hose clamp on it kept it in place. I just need to remember to dope it with sealer and hang it back in the head before the head install.
    Photo before the engine rip apart started but after just about everything on the front end was removed.
    [​IMG]

    A little antifreeze managed to hide someplace. Both block drains were removed. One possibility is that it leaked through the head gasket/studs.
    [​IMG]

    The sleeve flange is clearly visible here.
    [​IMG]

    And a little surprising, but maybe it shouldn't have been, the zero decked pistons can actually stick up about 0.0084" above the deck because those really short skirts let them rock a bit. I tapped them back and forth with a rubber tipped hammer.
    [​IMG]

    That stickup potentially reduced my head/piston clearance to 0.032", a little tighter than I'm comfortable with so the new gaskets are 0.051" compressed thickness instead of the 0.041" versions previously used. The down side is the reduced CR from about 10.5:1 to 10.3:1. I'm going to try Fel-Pro's 1043's this time around.

    Both the deck and heads are still flat:)

    Another problem found was the far end studs that sit in the end "wells". The ones included with the kit with the block all have very specific profiles to seat in the block. There is about 3/8's length of unthreaded shank with a tapered seat on the end. The builder had indicated at the time that those included studs were too short (due to AFR's raised exhaust ports) and he exchanged them for longer studs. Unfortunately, none of those had the proper seats but he used them anyway. I can chuck them up in the lathe and put the proper ends on them. I don't think that had anything to do with the leaks.

    Last but not least, the "builder" returned all the $ I had paid him----------
     
    SKT, dozerjim, blalp! and 8 others like this.
  20. Mar 29, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    5,627
    A 347 stroker kit in a Ford 302 is like that. With the big rod angles and short pistons, they aren't 300,000 mile motors for sure.

    Thank goodness. Also thank goodness everything is flat.
     
    Norcal69 likes this.
New Posts