1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

Won't start when hot????

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Sledgehammer, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Mar 20, 2009
    jhuey

    jhuey Michigan Jeeper!

    Indian River...
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    415
    Heat is resistance. Check the cables, voltage drop would be wise. Some times corrosion builds up inside insulation and causes voltage drop issues. make sure all connections are tight.
     
  2. Mar 20, 2009
    mdbeck1

    mdbeck1 55 Willys CJ5

    Oklahoma
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    201
    It sounds like a good first test would be to get it warm and verify that it would not start. Then connect the positive post of a battery to the solenoid using jumper cables. The negative would connect to the block. If it starts right up start checking the battery cables for corrosion and/or upgrade to heavier battery cable.
     
  3. Mar 23, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    :toetap: Well?
     
  4. Mar 23, 2009
    Sledgehammer

    Sledgehammer Sure, I'll try it

    Ellery, Il
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    341
    Yeah Yeah.....I've been really busy with work lately. I finally got it running last Thurs night. The 15th time I put the starter back on it it worked fine. It still won't re-start when it is warm. I tried jumping it while it was warm and that did nothing so voltage drop is ruled out (I jumped at the batt. and at the starter) I also checked around with a volt meter and everything checked out ok.

    When the engine is hot after a drive I can touch the starter with my bare hands and it is not hot. The solenoid has thermal tape on it so I ruled out the starter/solenoid problem.

    The PO had another (Ford style) solenoid on the fender. It was not directly in line from the battery to the solenoid mounted on the starter. I replaced it anyway.

    The batt cable is heavy guage.

    I have tested the starter on the bench and it works properly.

    All grounds are in good shape/new (by me)

    I have looked at other 225's as I have 3 of them + a 231 and the starter looks correct to me.

    I hope I've answered all the posed problems, I will try a new key switch tonight and probably a different bettery all together.

    On top of all this we went wheeling yesterday afternoon (I never shut it off) and when I got home and cleaned up, jacked up the front end to change the front diff fluids. I found that I have a broken axle shaft and teeth missing on the ring gear. (Big thanks to the previous owner for that one) I knew something wasn't quite right b/c it wasn't pulling both wheels on the front like it should have been. It had been like this since I brought it home.
     
  5. Mar 23, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Todd, :BFH: :smash: R)
     
  6. Mar 23, 2009
    AKCJ

    AKCJ Active Member

    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,035
    Well, this is a hard one to figure.

    1. I don't get the solenoid on the fender thing. What's up with that? Could be part of the problem.
    2. You may be ruling out the voltage drop thing too soon if you haven't put a meter on it. Measure the voltage drop. I do think you have this covered by jumping directly to the starter but just need to make sure.
    3. Heat. Shims. What if the starter teeth don't clear the ring gear teeth when hot? Could need more shims. I don't think this is it but just checking.
    4. Bad Starter?

    OK, I'm grasping but it's got to be SOMETHING.

    Let us know.
     
  7. Mar 23, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    OK I'll ansewr for Todd cause he is not online much due to work and we talk on the phone.

    From what he has told me the fender mount solenoid is only using one pole. I don't get it myself, told him to take it off.

    They had a test light and a multi meter on it. Not reading much V drop.

    He has tried different shim stacks. Same same.

    Think at last count he has had three starteres on it.


    He has told me it does have fat cables on it also.

    I'm thinking it's something funky in the wiring the PO did.
     
  8. Mar 23, 2009
    AKCJ

    AKCJ Active Member

    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,035
    dang!

    I can't think of anything else.
     
  9. Mar 23, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Gallon of gas and a match? R)


    Sorry Todd, :oops: could not resist. ;)
     
  10. Mar 23, 2009
    mdbeck1

    mdbeck1 55 Willys CJ5

    Oklahoma
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    201
    I thought I had seen a bunch but this one has me stumped as well.

    Original problem: It starts just fine when it's cold but doesn't when it gets warm.

    Answer1: That usually spells starter or solenoid. When he's on the third starter that kind of tells me that there's nothing wrong with the starter. I think he said that he he'd changed the solenoid multiple times. So it's probably not the solenoid. Post 1 also says that he is hearing a whine from the starter but the engine is not turning over (when it is warm).

    Answer2: Jumping direct from the battery to the starter with cables effectively bypasses the wiring and any voltage problems. That would indicate that it's not a battery cable issue.
    He could try setting up a remote starter and dropping all of the other connections to the solenoid. Run the engine until it is warm (hot) and see if he can repeat the problem.
    If it starts the problem is in the wiring harness.
    If the problem persists we still have a puzzle.

    Question: If the starter is turning over and the engine is not that means that the bendix is not connecting to the flywheel. OR the bendix gear is not turning the flywheel (bad starter). Is there SOME way to see the bendix when you are attempting to turn the engine over (when it is hot) so that you can verify that the bendix is indeed connecting the flywheel?
    The description of the noises is that the bendix is not engaging the flywheel. There could be several causes (most of which have been ruled out) like low voltage, low amperage(?), too many starter shims, broken teeth on the flywheel, broken teeth on the bendix, worn key on the starter gear, ...

    I'm running out of ideas... ...and I hate to lose.
     
  11. Mar 24, 2009
    bnorth10

    bnorth10 Wicked Willys Customs

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    128
    Double check your ground. Maybee when it is run and is jiggled around you are getting a loose ground connection. Flywheel possibly warped?? I also saw a guy once whose rig would shut down when it got warm and as he drove down the road it would die. The answer was a loose wire that would wiggle just enough to bend over and ground out when it got warm.
     
  12. Mar 24, 2009
    mdbeck1

    mdbeck1 55 Willys CJ5

    Oklahoma
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    201
    Another idea (yeah I hate to lose).

    Is the battery grounded to the frame? If so ground the STARTER casing to the battery.

    Reason:
    Motor mounts are not a good ground and people have a bad habit of removing the little ground strips from the engine. Hence the engine is only grounded through the small pieces of metal that go from the engine to different things (like carb linkage or fuel lines) I'd say at this point that the starter is not grounded well.
     
  13. Mar 24, 2009
    Sledgehammer

    Sledgehammer Sure, I'll try it

    Ellery, Il
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    341
    I have tried 2 diff starters. One came on it and the other came off my other Jeep. I think at last count I've had 4 different solenoids on it at some point.

    The first problem was a higher pitched whine in the starter when it was hot only. I don't believe the starter gear was engaging the flywheel at this time. There were no shims in the starter.

    The third time I dropped the starter and tried different heat shields, when I put it back on it wouldn't start cold. This time the starter gear was engaging the flywheel (cold) and would hammer on the flywheel but not turn the engine over. Over the next week I took the starter off at least a dozen more times trying shims and other things. I shimmed it from .040 to .100 in different numbers of shims. That did nothing. Last Thurs night a mechanic buddy of mine came over and I put the starter back on it and magically it started (we hadn't done anything different) We ran around and got it warm and came back to the garage. At this point I shut it off and tried to fire it again. It turned over slowly but never failed to start. When it did come close we tapped on the starter and it fired right off. Back to Sunday. I got home after driving it all afternoon and shut it off. Back to whining. I let it cool down completely and tried it again to put it away. This time it was hammering on the flywheel again. :? Last night I checked the key switch and it is fine. Tonight I may put a whole different battery in it and try that.

    The flywheel looks to be just fine. There are no missing teeth or the starter gear.

    The engine is grounded to the frame. I replaced this ground first off. I could try grounding the starter casing possibly. Thanks for the help everyone. I am pretty close to letting a local mechanic have this problem. (I've never had to do that before :cry: )
     
  14. Mar 24, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Say the word Todd and I'll come get and work on it for you. ;)
     
  15. Mar 25, 2009
    bnorth10

    bnorth10 Wicked Willys Customs

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    128
    You're probably getting frustrated by now with all the questions and ideas but just so we're all on the same page: You do know that there are different tooth counts on certain flywheels. ex. my L-head had the old floor-style foot switch and I converted it to the non-mechanical style. I found out the hard way when the starter started hammering on the flyweel and at certain times would not engage at all. The teeth count were different. Had to pull it all back apart and change to the different flywheel. I'm sure you have checked but make sure the same size engagement gear on the starter is back on the repalcement one.

    How hot is the starter (to the touch) after it has ran?
     
  16. Mar 25, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Unless I'm missing sumtin the V6 only has one style starter.

    Just make the point again, it does start and runs fine. When Todd shuts it off and then goes to restart it while hot it won't engage the sarter.
     
  17. Mar 25, 2009
    bnorth10

    bnorth10 Wicked Willys Customs

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    128
    Sorry for another post but I was reading back through your problems. One of my flatties also has a 225 with the battery mounted in the back. I bought it last summer and fought for quite a while with the starter turning over. My problem was low voltage due to too small of cables (like previously mentioned) going back to the battery. I finally broke down and bought $60 worth of heavy guage and an optima battery and I no longer have issues. It cranks wonderfully. I also had tried putting jumpers straight to the starter but I think it drew voltage back through the undersized cables. I also thought I had a bad starter even replaced it once. Also you may not have poor recharge back to your battery and not sending enough current back after running. (Just some more ideas) =)
     
  18. Mar 25, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Don't be sorry for posting. ;) I think the culprit is in the cables also. The ground cable goes from the rear (batt) to the front to ground, I think it should kept as short as possible.
    Todd did tell me the cables are big gauge.
    I have not seen it but we do talk on the phone. The only reason I answer for him is because he doesn't have the 'net at home and doesn't use it at work.
     
  19. Mar 25, 2009
    mdbeck1

    mdbeck1 55 Willys CJ5

    Oklahoma
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    201
    Okay so let's test the cable length theory. Get the jeep warm/hot and verify that it doesn't want to start. Disconnect the LONG battery cables from the solenoid and attach a battery (from the jeep or another vehicle) with jumper cables direct to the solenoid. I'd run the ground from the jump battery DIRECT to the starter casing. If it starts we'll blame the LONG cables. If not we've reduced one thing that it could be.

    Also this test basically just takes time. I'm going to guess you have a set of good 4 or 6 gauge cables and you can use one of the jeep batteries (or a vehicle). No real cost or extra parts.
     
  20. Mar 25, 2009
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Just got off the phone with Todd. We may have lift off!!
    Thinking it was a combo of a weak/dead cell in the batt and the ground cable being way to long. The batt showed good on volts but weak on amps.
    It is cranking when hot now. :)
     
New Posts