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Can I blow this stud ...

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Homebrew2, Feb 25, 2008.

  1. Feb 25, 2008
    Homebrew2

    Homebrew2 Member

    Dunlap, CA
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
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    ... with the torch?

    So, my story: I am in the process of renewing/upgrading the exhaust system. I was able to remove ALL manifold AND exhaust pipe bolts, using "safe wrenching" ... except one ... the worst one ... the manifold stud up against the firewall. It appears to be broke flush with the block.

    Question: What's the best method to get the broken stud out, without jacking the motor so I actually have room to drill it out and tap it?

    I've never done it but, have heard I can blow a steel bolt out of a cast orifice with a torch (???) I know all the safety/heat-shielding stuff and am prepared, but, ... ya know, never done it. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2008
  2. Feb 26, 2008
    MCSCOTT

    MCSCOTT Member

    Columbia, Tn
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    I don't know about blowing it out with a torch for sure, looks like that would make a mess out of it. Other's here might have some better ideas, and I don't even know if you have enough room to get in there to do it, but something we've done on the cast part of axles is take a mig welder and start building up weld on the bolt. Once it's built up enough to get to it, stick a nut on top of it and weld the nut to the weld you've built up. When we've done that on the axles, (even though you sometimes have to reweld the nut a few times), it usually comes out without even hurting the threads. Keep in mind, it always makes me nervous doing this because I always worry about whether it will work or screw up the whole thing, and the only thing we've done it on is the cast housing of a 60 front axle where since they are bad about breaking studs off the spring mount, but so far we haven't had any trouble. Little tip if you try it though, once you have the nut welded on, let it cool some, but don't dump water or anything on it to cool it down because that makes it more brittle. Let it cool a little, then try to get it to break loose while it's still warm.
     
  3. Feb 26, 2008
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    I know that studs can be removed with a torch - the muffler shop removed the studs from my truck's exhaust manifold that way. However! I'd want to practice on a scrap block or something like that before I tried it. Seems pretty risky if you've never done it.
     
  4. Feb 26, 2008
    64Jeeper

    64Jeeper I have Brakes!

    Spring City, Pa.
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    Mar 31, 2007
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    I'd say that if you have the room, and if there is any sticking out of the block, try grinding the end flat, soaking the bolt in penetrating fluid, after a day or so, go back and hit the end of the bolt real hard with a hammer, this will shock the rust loose. after doing that, try to get a vicegrip on it, and it should turn right out.

    If the bolt is not sticking out, then you will have to use a punch with the hammer, then you will have to use a drill, and an easy-out to remove it.
     
  5. Feb 26, 2008
    SIDSCJ

    SIDSCJ Jeep addict

    14th State
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    :iagree: Pull the manifold and see how much is sticking out of the block. Try the above method, or weld a nut to the remaining stud. If it's flush, you're left with either the torch or drill and tap. I personally would drill it and retap or use a heli-coil insert as removing the broken easy out IS NOT EASYR). BTDT. You may find you can't access the hole straight on with a drill as the firewall is in the way too. Then you get to pull the engine to straighten out the crooked hole you drilled from trying. Seen it on way too many f-heads. Good luck, the whole deal is a PITA, but not all that uncommon. Remember that the stud goes in to the water jacket so if you use an insert be sure to seal that in addition to the new stud or it will leak around it.
     
  6. Feb 26, 2008
    Homebrew2

    Homebrew2 Member

    Dunlap, CA
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    Thanks men. I like the welded nut idea and think I have room to do it. I'll get it apart this afternoon and see exatly what I have to work with. Appreciate all the comments and tips.
     
  7. Feb 26, 2008
    lynn

    lynn Time machine / Early CJ5 HR Rep Staff Member

    Huntingdon PA
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    Let us know how this turns out... with pics if possible! :)
     
  8. Feb 26, 2008
    MCSCOTT

    MCSCOTT Member

    Columbia, Tn
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    Just a note on the welded nut part, it doesn't matter if it's flush or even broke off down in the block, if you can build the weld up you can usually get it to come out, because the weld won't hardly stick to the cast threads. I haven't had tons of experience doing this, but both axles we've done it on had the stud broke off down in the housing, so we had to build the weld up flush and then weld the nut on. Then we run a tap in to chase the threads, and the bolt goes in great.

    I always worry about this method though because if it should happen to not work, that makes it that much harder to try to drill the weld, or at least I would assume it would. I don't know for sure because I've never had this method fail, but it's always a stressful process. As it was mentioned with the torch method, it would be good if you had something you could test this on before you try it on the engine in the Jeep.
     
  9. Feb 26, 2008
    66cj5

    66cj5 Jeep with no name

    NorthWest Indiana
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    Sep 10, 2003
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    I've used the welded on nut many times. works real good.

    make sure you use some never-sieze when you reassemble everying.
     
  10. Feb 26, 2008
    toolbox

    toolbox If you get bored, I've got the projects.

    Hamilton, Montana
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    I used the weld method on a Subaru engine last year...broke a water pump bolt off flush with the (aluminum) block. I MIG welded a bolt to the nub, and it turned right out. The heat of the weld will do a lot to get it free as well. I also ended up welding bolt to a couple of the windshield screws on my '55 CJ5 to get them out...the Phillips head screws were completely blown out from some previous owner trying to remove them, so I just welded new bolts to the heads. Worked like a champ :).

    The only use I've ever found for drilling a hole and using an easy-out is generating a nice bill from the local machine shop when it breaks off in the hole :oops:. Seriously...they should be called an "impossible out".
     
  11. Feb 26, 2008
    kaiser_willys

    kaiser_willys Well-Known Member

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    same thing if you break a drill bit or tap,BTDT tool steel is some tough steel, to drill is almost impossible, broke a tap off once, in block where head bolts go, a brand new center punch purchased from napa several re sharpnings and 5 hours later i got it out"in pieces" chipped it out
     
  12. Feb 26, 2008
    canuckCJ

    canuckCJ Member

    Channahon, IL
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    It's never fun but I've done this a couple of times on exhaust bolts and was successful both times. I didn't use an easy out though. In both cases I had a surface that was flat enough and I had the working room to get in a good center punch and drilled it out slowly and progressing in size until almost touching or just grazing the old threads. At this point you can work the old bolt out with picks, or what have you. I've heard backwards drill bits work well for this but don't own any.

    good luck!
     
  13. Feb 26, 2008
    Homebrew2

    Homebrew2 Member

    Dunlap, CA
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    Well, the good news is that I didn't blow-up, set fire to, or scald anything :beer:

    The not-so-good news is that I failed to get a build-up of weld and fuse a nut that would take torquing.

    Admittedly, I'm not a welder by trade nor do I have the best equipment but I have held my own for some years. There was no "stob" to attach to and I really think the heat blowback from the cold block combined with my lack of skill/experience doomed this attempt. After thinking about it, trying to weld a nut to a 5/16" (tap drill size) blind stud with ~maybe 3/4" penetration into the block, is a bit much to ask. ... not saying others haven't done it.

    Again, thanks for the timely help ... that's why I worded the subjectline as I did :beer:
     
  14. Feb 27, 2008
    MCSCOTT

    MCSCOTT Member

    Columbia, Tn
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    How many times did you try it? Sometimes it takes a few tries and a few nuts to get it done. Also, like I said, you want to let it cool enough to make sure the weld is gonna hold, but yet still do it while the block and bolt are warm. Also, when you're building the weld up, don't worry about filling the hole completely up if you can get a good bond with it. As long as the block is cast, the weld shouldn't stick to the threads if you aren't welding it too hot. Then just run a tap in it some to chase the threads before you put a new bolt back in it.

    Sorry to hear it didn't work though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2008
  15. Feb 27, 2008
    64Jeeper

    64Jeeper I have Brakes!

    Spring City, Pa.
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    That's why you hit it with a hammer before you drill it. The shock of hitting it will, in most cases, break the rust free enough to use an easyout. I havn't broke one off yet.:beer:
     
  16. Feb 27, 2008
    Homebrew2

    Homebrew2 Member

    Dunlap, CA
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    I had time to give it two complete shots before I ran out of day. I really wasnt able to get a good, uniform bond to the stud I don't think. Possibly the horizontal position played a part. I may not have enough heat either. Lots of possibles. The worst one is that I don't like the look of the stud material. It has a very crystallene look and when it broke there was a piece sticking out of the block that was a "chard" ... looked like a wedge of wood split off of a round when the grain runs diagonal in a log. Dunno.
     
  17. Feb 27, 2008
    66cj5

    66cj5 Jeep with no name

    NorthWest Indiana
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    are you wire or stick welding?
     
  18. Feb 27, 2008
    Homebrew2

    Homebrew2 Member

    Dunlap, CA
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    Fluxcore @ 90A(max)
     
  19. Feb 27, 2008
    Homebrew2

    Homebrew2 Member

    Dunlap, CA
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    Just a few notes from today:

    I did a lot of research before posting originally, and after posting. It seems everybody and thier brother uses the weld-nut-to stud technique. ... and I ~believe~ in the method.

    I tried twice more today, using the trick of welding a washer to the stud then welding the nut to the washer.

    I also figured out my prob yesterday was TOO MUCH heat (setting for welding 1/8" material-max setting). Today I set it for 16 ga. (about half power). It worked good, IMO, nice smooth controlable beads, no beads trying to droop. ... and upon inspecting the failures, pretty good indication from the fractures that I got good fusion to the stud this time.

    I believe, from what the initial break looked like, that this stud was abused at some point in it's life and has a bad attitude and cannot be sweet-talked ... so, it's personal now I guess.

    Reminder to self: If you'd rather be drivin' than fightin', don't pick a fight till you're ready to fight :beer:
     
  20. Feb 27, 2008
    MCSCOTT

    MCSCOTT Member

    Columbia, Tn
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    Wait......I'm confused now. You mentioned in your post that it worked, but then toward the end it sounded like you're still battling it. :? After seeing the post before that I was going to say make sure you don't weld too hot. Welding cast is done with alot of heat, so in this case you don't want the weld to stick to the cast, so you don't want much heat......just enough to get a good weld on the bolt. When you start trying to take it out, try to kinda work it back and forth some as your doing it and it will make sure the rust and weld all breaks loose. That is.....if you haven't already been successful.
     
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